Colt New Service .45 Colt Army Model of 1909

[Von der Goltz]

Here for your perusal is Colt New Service .45 DA Colt Army Model of 1909 serial number 30443 which was 1 of 750 shipped to United States Government Commanding Officer Ordnance Depot Manila, The Philippines on June 17, 1909. Army Inspectors of Ordnance R.A.C (Rinaldo A. Carr) is visible underneath barrel; on back of cylinder and left side of frame and FB (Major Frank Baker) is seen on left side of frame.

 

[Boarhunter]

I always enjoy the guns you share with us! Thank you.

BOARHUNTER

 

[.455_Hunter]

Cool!

I love the 1909.

Any idea when it was re-finished?

 

[Von der Goltz]

Just a guess but probably during its service in the Philippines by the US Army Ordnance Dept since most of the 1909s spent their entire service life there.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Do you know how late they were used in an on-duty capacity? I am not sure when the last special .45 Colt ammo designed for the 1909 was produced. I have some .38 Long Colt that is Frankford Arsenal in 1911, probably getting close to the end of it's run.

 

[jeff-10]

Now that CZ/Colt has brought back the major snake guns, its time for them to do so with the New Service. In addition to the 45LC, they need to bring back some of the other original calibers, 44 Special, 357 Magnum and of course 45 ACP with half moon clips. Hopefully they can keep it sub $1000.

I'd rather see that before the Boa or even the Detective Special or Trooper.

 

[Von der Goltz]

Do you know how late they were used in an on-duty capacity? I am not sure when the last special .45 Colt ammo designed for the 1909 was produced. I have some .38 Long Colt that is Frankford Arsenal in 1911, probably getting close to the end of it's run.

I don't know off hand but will do some research but would assume they stayed in service in the Philippines for quite awhile.

 

[DocRock]

Nice pistol

Do you know how late they were used in an on-duty capacity? I am not sure when the last special .45 Colt ammo designed for the 1909 was produced. I have some .38 Long Colt that is Frankford Arsenal in 1911, probably getting close to the end of it's run.

Can you elaborate on "special .45 Colt ammo designed for the 1909" ? I wasn't aware that there was any ammunition specially made for the 1909. Do you have any details? Thanks.

 

[BobWright]

Nice pistol


Can you elaborate on "special .45 Colt ammo designed for the 1909" ? I wasn't aware that there was any ammunition specially made for the 1909. Do you have any details? Thanks.

Frankford Arsenal made the .45 M1909 cartridges for the M1909 revolvers. They were essentially the .45 Colt round but having a larger dia. rim for more positive extraction with the multiple ejector of the Colt New Service.



Note the headstamp on the one on the right indicates manufacture in December of 1913.

The .45 M1909 coudl not be loaded in adjacent chambers of the Colt Single Action Army due to interference by the larger rims. Loading every other chamber, the M1909 ammunition could be fired in the SAA.



Note the overlap of rims.

Bob Wright

 

[BobWright]

Do you know how late they were used in an on-duty capacity? I am not sure when the last special .45 Colt ammo designed for the 1909 was produced. I have some .38 Long Colt that is Frankford Arsenal in 1911, probably getting close to the end of it's run.

Here are some .38 Long Colt for military issue, latest one I have dated 1918:



And some .45 M1909 dated Dec. 1913:




Bob Wright

 

[Tallball]

That is extremely nice. Thank you for sharing.

 

[DocRock]

Frankford Arsenal made the .45 M1909 cartridges for the M1909 revolvers. They were essentially the .45 Colt round but having a larger dia. rim for more positive extraction with the multiple ejector of the Colt New Service.

View attachment 988562

Note the headstamp on the one on the right indicates manufacture in December of 1913.

The .45 M1909 coudl not be loaded in adjacent chambers of the Colt Single Action Army due to interference by the larger rims. Loading every other chamber, the M1909 ammunition could be fired in the SAA.

View attachment 988563

Note the overlap of rims.

Bob Wright

Cool. So, I wonder if that is the basis for current SAAMI spec for 45 Colt, explaining why there is a proper rim to the cartridge nowadays?

 

[BobWright]

Cool. So, I wonder if that is the basis for current SAAMI spec for 45 Colt, explaining why there is a proper rim to the cartridge nowadays?

I don't think the M1909 round had any influence on the commercial ammunition. Here are some vintage .45 rounds so any increase in rim diameter likely is for use in lever action rifles and carbines, a very late developement.



Bob Wright

 

[Von der Goltz]

Thanks Bob for the very interesting info on the various cartridges,

 

[Von der Goltz]

Found several boxes of original issue Frankford Arsenal ammo for this pistol:

 

[Vern Humphrey]

In my own humble opinion, this is the revolver we should have used instead of the M1917. The issue was commonality of ammunition -- but when they bought ammo loaded in half moon clips, that ammo had a different stock number, so for all practical purposes was a different cartridge from the .45 ACP.

 

[Jim Watson]

Except when they actually manufactured the cartridges themselves. There wasn't any difference in what they clipped than what they issued for 1911s, was there? A whole 'other round, probably already discontinued would have been a challenge.

What surprises me is that they went to an all new big rim .45 LC in 1909 instead of using the FA 1906 revolver round specified for the trials that led to the 1911.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Except when they actually manufactured the cartridges themselves. There wasn't any difference in what they clipped than what they issued for 1911s, was there? A whole 'other round, probably already discontinued would have been a challenge.

What surprises me is that they went to an all new big rim .45 LC in 1909 instead of using the FA 1906 revolver round specified for the trials that led to the 1911.

Ammo was readily available from commercial sources. The cost of the clip and the labor involved in loading it would have made the .45 Colt a better choice.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Now that CZ/Colt has brought back the major snake guns, its time for them to do so with the New Service. In addition to the 45LC, they need to bring back some of the other original calibers, 44 Special, 357 Magnum and of course 45 ACP with half moon clips. Hopefully they can keep it sub $1000.

I'd rather see that before the Boa or even the Detective Special or Trooper.

Show me a new New Service for under $1,000 and I'll buy half a dozen.

 

[Jim Watson]

Ammo was readily available from commercial sources.

But they adopted the .45-1909 because they did not think a hand ejector would reliably pull .45 LC empties. The which ammunition was never made commercially.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

But they adopted the .45-1909 because they did not think a hand ejector would reliably pull .45 LC empties. The which ammunition was never made commercially.

But Industry WAS making .45 ammo with the wider rim, and had been for 10 years -- how could Colt have sold the New Service to civilians without proper ammo?

 

[Von der Goltz]

Among the boxes of Frankford Arsenal issue ammo was this box of 20 blanks dated May 23 1914. The latest dated live ammo boxes are dated January and May 1914.

 

[Von der Goltz]

Took the revolver out to a friend's range yesterday and shot some 40 rounds and the old Warhorse performed flawlessly and was spot on every time. Since this range has only metal targets no photos but next time will have photos of paper targets at another range. Used this modern factory loaded 45 LC ammo.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Looking forward to the paper target range report!

Those blanks are very interesting. They look like some vintage .45 Colt wildcat, like a .25/.45 Screamer.

 

[HPJeep]

Always wanted a 1909.