1911 .45, what is the best?

[Grayrider]

Hmm...a lot of guys on here telling you to get Colts. I don't hear that very often amongst my friends who are into 1911s. Now I won't argue about the quality of their metallurgy, but if you get a Colt you will probably end up customizing it quite a bit. Not because you have to, but because you will want to shape it to your liking. I personally prefer to have much of that done already when I buy the gun. Thus a Kimber, Springfield, or maybe a Dan Wesson Patriot has much of this taken care of. Will they still be reliable? Sure they will. My Kimber and SAs have been as realiable as any 1911 I have ever owned. I don't have a DW Patriot, but Stephen A. Camp does. Read his review at the 1911 forums. Then there is the STI Trojan, and I think that will be my next purchase. Very impressive piece of work for just under a grand.

I am not knocking Colt exactly. I have one Delta, and at one time back in the 80's that was the only brand I had in handguns. But they have fallen far behind in terms of features offered, and from my experience their pistols are not as accurate out of the box as the other makers. I cannot see a difference in reliability based on my recent experience either. So I would look further and be sure you get everything you can for your money.

GR

PS: After you get into 1911s, you won't want to buy your friends USPs!

 

[harrydog]

QUOTE:
"Colts have the better quality of parts and metallurgy..."

I've hear this mentioned from time to time, as a reason to buy a Colt over the competition, but I'm always curious how this conclusion is arrived at. Is there any evidence, anywhere, that Colt's metallurgy is any better? If so, I'd love to see it. As a matter of fact, I've heard that Colts sometimes have a tendency to crack when subjected to years of high round counts. I wish there was a way to find the truth.

 

[BigG]

I've had good luck with Colt Government Models and Gold Cups, no failures of any kind with more than 10 pistols and about 30 years. Also the one Army 1911A1 I had was trouble free. Have not owned any clones.

 

[Dobe]

Colt Vs Clone

I've hear this mentioned from time to time, as a reason to buy a Colt over the competition, but I'm always curious how this conclusion is arrived at. Is there any evidence, anywhere, that Colt's metallurgy is any better? If so, I'd love to see it. As a matter of fact, I've heard that Colts sometimes have a tendency to crack when subjected to years of high round counts. I wish there was a way to find the truth.

Harrydog, I believe you are right. I don't and haven't seen higher quality from Colt. I think that Colt has quality firearm (forced onto them by the competition), but Kimber took most of the 1911 business away from them.. You do not do this by building inferior firearms.

I am currently weighing the purchase of another 1911. It is between a Kimber Series I or a 1911 Series 70. From past performance, I am leaning toward the Kimber, but I feel confident that I really would not be disappointed in the Colt.

 

[45auto]

Tough question,

The notion that the 1911 needs a lot of customization to work is false. You can spend an enormous amount if you wish, but those modifications are well beyond what you stipulated you need. Most of those are well beyond "need" for anyone.

I think the chances of getting a very reliable 1911 out of the Big 3 that you mentioned are very good, out of the box.

But, IMHO, the chances are greater than the other "modern" guns that you may get a 1911 that needs either a "tweak" and/or better mags. So, it may be possible that an extractor may need adjusting and/or the need to buy better mags which solves a large portion of the so called problems.

So, if you you like the way it handles, shoots, etc, then it's worth the potential little extra effort.
If the HK feels and shoots as good or better than the 1911, you should pass- why bother!!

That said, for the money, I'd buy the Springfield "Loaded". If money is not primary and you want the Colt, they are excellent,
buy that and add an extended beavertail and better sights at the very least.

Good luck

 

[G Man.40]

Wilson Combat makes a fine line.

 

[Chairman Meow]

I went through this very decision making process and I ended up choosing a Springfield because the Loaded model seemed to be the most gun for the money. I paid about $580 for it as opposed to the $800 to $900 I was looking at to get one of the Kimbers I liked. Don't get me wrong, I really like Kimbers, I was just a little low on funds and I found the Springfiled to be a better deal. I had some hiccups with it out of the box, which pissed me off to no end. I replaced the extractor with a Wilson hardened extractor and bought some Wilson 8rd mags. It is now very reliable and a joy to shoot. I have rounded off some of the edges a little around the thumb area and I plan on taking the Integral Locking System out of the mainspring housing just because it makes me feel good to own guns that are illegal in California.

 

[45auto]

I think you did better buying the Springfield.
Some of the companies, not the big 3 of course, are getting the message.
S&W uses Wilson mags and Dan Wesson uses CMC power mags for some of their models. Imagine including high quality mags to reduce the chance of misfeeds- what a novel idea!

 

[Sean Smith]

The Colt metalurgy thing is pretty simple. It really doesn't have to do with frames and slides (although those are high-quality forgings), but with the internal components. They use alot less MIM than Kimber does. Over on 1911forum.com they had a list of which parts were made of what if you feel like digging around for it.... along with another topic full of stories of Kimber MIM parts breaking in two with minimal use.

 

[harrydog]

Ahhh. The internal parts. That makes more sense.
I don't doubt that Colt frame & slide forgings are excellent, but I was always curious about people saying that their metallurgy was superior to anything else.

 

[Brer Bear]

I have been bitten by the 1911 bug, and have begun the search for information... so far, as I understand it, there are two types of barrels and receivers, for the 1911's, ones with throated barrels, and ones with ramped barrels. Is one configuration more likely to feed a wider range of ammunition than another? If this is indeed true, which manufacturer makes which type?

 

[Sean Smith]

The majority of .45 ACP 1911s are unramped. The general consensus among pistolsmiths is that the unramped arrangement is more reliable in .45 ACP 1911s. For higher pressure cartridges, a ramped barrel is generally better. Some pictures of different 1911 barrel types:

http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/10tech.html

 

[Brer Bear]

Ok, i get it now, for lower pressure rounds like the .45 there is no advantage over the original configuration (internal ramp & throated barrel), but for higher pressure rounds like the 10mm, .40, .38 super & 9x23 a ramped barrel and frame would be ideal. Thanks for the information.

 

[Pendragon]

Not sure how much you want to spend.

If you can swing ~$1300ish, the Valtro (www.valtrousa.com) is an amazing 1911 - extremely well made and fitted.

Do some searches on us rabid Valtro owners who own these guns - they are as reliable as a 1911 gets, they have some very nice features seen usually only on a full on custom pistol.

Only bummer is - the wait is getting longer all the time and there is pretty much just one way to get them - although I had a different safety installed and you can get hard chrome instead of blueing...

Its a little more than the factory jobs, but this baby is an utter gem. I have one in the low 400s...

 

[dsk]

Harrydog, I believe you are right. I don't and haven't seen higher quality from Colt. I think that Colt has quality firearm (forced onto them by the competition), but Kimber took most of the 1911 business away from them.. You do not do this by building inferior firearms.

The early Kimbers were indeed very good. But then Kimber started doing what all new manufacturers do, suffer growing pains and not keep the initial emphasis on quality over production levels.

I also find that street talk lags behind relaity by at least a couple of years. When people say that Brand X is doing well or doing poorly, they're really talking about what was happening years ago. The new Colts are indeed as good or better than anything they've made since the mid 1960's. It's just taking awhile for enough people to see and handle one to get the word out. And of course, some people just have a vendetta against Colt thanks to their prior business practices and won't give them any slack.

 

[Volpe]

I have Colts and Springfields. I took the SF and tightened the slide and peened the rails until I had to stone them to get the slide back on. The gun was tight as a drum and utterly realiable. I dont think I ever had a jam with it and it shoots very accurately. But, you really dont ned a tight slide for accuracy because its how the barrel fits that counts. The barrel has to lock up tight in the slide then yer cookin. Now, with that said, it depends on what you are going to do with it. For banging around save some $$ and go with the SF but a Colt is, well, a Colt. I have seen and am thinking about getting a 10mm in either a Dan Wesson or I hear Kimber might be coming out with one. They are both nice guns also....

 

[Rich357]

Hi Sean,

Several of those posts you listed, that were made to the 1911, were made by the same person. It looks like only two or three people had a problem with their Baer pistols. Don't you think two or three people represent a small percentage of Baer's customers?

Rich

 

[Doc]

Rich:

Sorry, need to vent/flame.


The people who know handguns,
because THEY DO GUNS FOR A LIVING
including:

Roy Huntington*
Robbie Barkman
Clint Smith*
Harry Fleming*
Charlie Petty
John Taffin
Mike Venturino*
Ken Hackathorn
Ray Chapman
Jack Furr*
and others

AGREE that there are many quality 45's, even out of the box.
BUT they* ENTRUST THEIR LIVES to Les Baer's skill and craftsmanship.

When I want a new toy,
I buy it and then ask them what they think,
because I wanted it anyway.

You don't have to believe me,
what do I know, I'm just a gynecologist.
But when I want opinions and advice
upon which I am going to STAKE MY LIFE
I ask them and trust their opinions.


and yes, as you noticed,
very few people
have had legitimate complaints with Les Baer guns,
but they sure are vocal aren't they?

to borrow a phrase, they are "email cowards".
When I have a problem with
a product
I give THE MANUFACTURER first
dibbs to correct the problem
(see my previous thread regarding my Kimber TLE II shooting high)

Jump in here anytime El Tejon...

 

[Mil Novecientos Once]

Springfield PX9109L

 

[Rich357]

Hi Doc,

I'm not sure if you're venting in my direction. I agree with you.

I was mildly taking Sean to task. I thought he was making it look as if Baer had lots of complaints, when in fact there were several posts by one person and one or two other posts by one or two more people. That to me is not a very significant number of complainers in relation to Baer's customer base.

Please feel free to vent in Sean's direction.

Rich
ps Doc, anytime you need to go on vacation I'll be happy to
fill in for you at work. I've given much of my time to
studying the female anatomy.

 

[Mr. Black]

I'm going to assume that you're talking new here.

There are the "sub-class" guns which I'd stay away from if your interested in reliability. Lllama, Rock River (or island, whatever)

Then there are the big three (think cars) colt, SA and Kimber. However, the Colts and Kimbers are NOT real 1911's. They've both got stupid extra crap in them.

And Kimber is A) located in yonkers (I've got a think against NY) B) Buys frames from S&W (HUD agreement will be binding if W doesn't win) and C) so cheap that an $800 gun comes with a plastic mainspring housing. And depending on who you talk to, their MIM parts are the ones that give MIM 1911 parts a bad rep. Oh, and you can't get them "un-customized" I don't see how Kimber is increasing our choices by only selling "loaded" guns. But, some people like that stuff.


I, personally, would have really liked to have been able to buy a Colt, however, I refuse to pay the $1,000 for the series 70 rei-issue that should cost less to make. They're nice (shot one yesterday) but the series 80 stuff makes for a fishy trigger pull and pisses me off.

So I got an SA. Which means I get to be PO'd by the "Imbel Brazil" (they're good frames, just not american) However, the customer service is excellent and the pistol is utterly reliable. It would be (and is) my choice for any kind of serious work.

And then there's the high end stuff. You get better QC, a tighter slide fit (feels nice but unnecessary even for accuracy) a name and a big price tag.

I've shot $1,500 Les Baer's etc. One was so tight at lockup you could hardly rack it. But at the end of the day, they were no more reliable than my SA and worse, usually (to me) unconfortable with their checkering, speedbumps, thin grips etc.

So buy an SA if the series 80 stuff makes you mad, or buy a colt if it doesn't.

PS-Soon all Kimbers will have external extractors. One more reason they're not a 1911.

 

[ruger357]

I've had great luck with my Kimber.

 

[Jeff Timm]

A 1936 Colt Government Model Commercial Blue.

Geoff
Who knows if it's good enough for Indiana Jones, it's good enough for him.
Who also knows one in excellent condition, would be worth thousands.

 

[Catbird]

I'm definitely not an impulsive buyer. After spending several days reading and researching this very question, I decided on a stainless, NRM, Colt 1991A1. I'll be picking it up in two days. After that, I'll begin my quest for a "new" 70-series Colt 1911.

 

[valnar]

I got to this thread a little late. This is for the original poster.

Since you mentioned Springfield and Kimber, I assume you want a decent production gun with some custom features at a price below $1000. If I am wrong, well, there are always the cu$tom shops.

In the boundaries I just said, I would highly recommend the Dan Wesson Patriot above all others. 'tis one fine looking 1911.

-Robert