1911 beginner

[fishblade2]

Since the 1911 is a classic firearm and I'm a gun collector I figured I needed one. This place is my best source I have for information. There is like a thousand different types out there and I'm still discovering more. So first what brand(s) should I pick from. I've heard good about kimber, colt, Springfield, and of course Wilson Combat. I can't afford Wilson Combat right now and I'm not sure which one would be the best. I haven't shot one nor do I really know of a place around me where I could find way to shoot one. So can you guys start me in a direction here? I would like to know some of the brands that are great without upgrades and ones that would be made even better with upgrades? So which ones would be great stock and which ones would be best to buy for the aftermarket pieces? I know they are going to be kinda expensive and I don't mind that because I want to get a good one. Along with the brand I'm not sure what I might want to change for them. There are so many upgrades for a 1911 that can be changed,but for you what do you see as the most beneficial changes to be made on the 1911 if any? Along with this where can I find a listing of all 1911 model upgrades? Thanks!

 

[wlewisiii]

Ask yourself why you want one.

Do you just want a pretty firearm for the safe? Then buy one of the top end Colts and be done.

Do you want a range toy?

Have you shot one before? If not, buy a Rock Island. Good quality, low price, lets you see if you enjoy the 1911 and all of it's many quirks. If not, you'll sell it with less lost value than many more expensive ones.

If you have, then you have a better handle on it. I'd suggest Springfield Mil-Spec as the best Bang/Buck I've seen.

Now, I shot 1911's in the army in the early '80's. I was a unit armorer as well and know how to smith a 1911. I learned to hate the 1911. Total POS. I cheered when I heard the M-9 would replace those worn out things. My favorite .45 ACP pistol is the Ruger P97. Take my opinion for being worth just as much as you paid for it.

And then do yourself a favor and get a decent pistol to shoot and a wall hanger for your collection.

 

[mljdeckard]

Yeah, you can get a lot of different flavors of 1911. If you're interested in the historical aspect, you might look at the Springfield G.I or Mil-Spec models. You may or may not want to tweak and modify it, that is a game that never ends.

for the most part you are going to get what you pay for, but I think that the law of diminishing returns comes in at around $100. Meaning, if you start spending more than that, it will get better, but not proportionally better.

My current favorite is my Kimber Custom II, (which currently retails for about $725,) but if I had to buy another one tomorrow, I would look at the STI Spartan, the new Ruger, The Dan Wesson, maybe the Taurus. The only one I really would ignore is the S&W, and only because external extractors give me the willies.

My M-9 was more worn out than any of the 1911s I serviced. At least I could easily rebuild the 1911s.

 

[mdThanatos]

You'll get a bunch of buy this buy that responses in this thread.

I'll throw out some names:

Rock Island
Colt
Ruger
S&W
Sig
Springfield
STI
Kimber
Remington
Metro Arms
Taurus

Figure out a budget first. If you have a smaller budget $600 or less, then a basic Springfield, RIA, Taurus, Metro Arms, STI maybe are the brands that you will be looking at for new. If that budget can go to $1000 or so then you can open up with the Colts, higher tiered Springfields, STI, S&W, Sig (I think).

I'm going to recommend setting a budget and trying to get a feel for various models, some that are GI style and others that have some upgrades. That will help you refine your options and then you'll be able to narrow it down easier.

 

[NinjaFeint]

I just did this whole 1911 search too. My first 1911 but not my first hangun. I rented a S&W, Sig and Taurus to try, and shot a Ruger, a Kimber and a Springfield owned by friends and such.

Out of all those I liked the Smith the best and went to buy an E-series at the LGS. LGS did not have an e-series (well the base model and I am not spending 1200 on a S&W 1911) so I started looking through the cases. I settled on a DW Heritage after remembering reading only good reviews on Dan Wesson 1911's.

Shoots like a dream, fit and finish is as good as any gun I have seen for the money. Best 1000 dollar that I have spent in a while.

Go look through threads on 1911forum to see what people are saying about various brands/models, then see what you can try out.

My new baby

 

[IlikeSA]

I recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/1911-First-Ye...1159/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1326713636&sr=8-7

You may find it at your local library, but it would be a good investment for anyone. It has a lot of information about 1911's, from the history, the evolution, and some of the modern makes and models, as well as full custom builds.

If you were willing to say where you were, there may be someone who would be willing to let you try their 1911. I personally went with the Springfield GI model that I am slowly upgrading over time, so that I can make it more mine. The only mod I have on it so far is night sights, but eventually I will get it refinished and probably pull out the MIM and replace it with tool steel. The good thing about them is that you can get a lower end, then visit Brownells and find more than you ever wanted to add to it. Even at the lower end, with a mainstream maker, they shoot well enough to be fun.

 

[hq]

Since the 1911 is a classic firearm and I'm a gun collector I figured I needed one.

If collectibility is a concern, I'd look no further than Colt and have a competent gunsmith hand-fit the frame, slide and barrel and fine-tune the trigger to perfection using original parts. A "national match" -job, which doesn't alter the gun itself, only improves accuracy and brings it to much closer tolerances.

But you're also talking about customization, which suggests otherwise? 1911 is a proverbial construction kit, there's an abundance of drop-in parts as you already have noticed. If you're about to take that route, the only things that really matter are frame, slide and barrel. Material, fit and finish. Everything can be replaced but it's cheaper and easier to start with a quality gun that already has as many good parts as possible.

I'm a bit reluctant to recommend any brand over others, but it's hard to go wrong with Kimber. If you want more magazine capacity, STI is almost an obvious choice but many of their guns are far from traditional. I've combined double stack configuration with "classic" style by building some guns on Para-Ordnance frames; some say Para guns have a slightly questionable reputation but personally I've never had problems with them. YMMV.

It all boils down to what you really want. No matter what you'll end up with, there's a good chance it won't be your last 1911, they're known to be addictive.

 

[2wheels]

The problem is you don't seem to really know what you want and there are waaaay too many choices in the 1911 world for us to choose for you.

Want a historical looking 1911? Buy something like a Series 70 Colt or a Springfield GI or MilSpec and spend some time getting used to them before you go crazy with mods. They can always be upgraded later if you so desire.

 

[txgunsuscg]

Rent. Figure out what you like before you buy. I have several 1911s, the only one I have ever had a problem with was an Armscor (RIA, High Standard, etc). It went full auto on me at the range one day. Lest someone say this is rare, I was taking a 1911 Armorer class, in which they used RIAs for the learner guns. The one they gave me had a sear that was cut at an angle from right to left. It only engaged one hook....

That being said, if you want a basic you can mod later, a Remington or Springfield Mil-Spec (NOT GI) are good guns to build on. If you want a collector, buy a Colt...

 

[Olympus]

As others have said, there are WAY too many different 1911 makers. And each manufacturer makes multiple different models with different options. You just need to spend a lot of time perusing the gun websites and checking out the different models. Also, set a price range and you'll narrow the results that way too.

Asking which company makes the best 1911 is just opening a can of worms. As a general statement, most all manufacturers make a good 1911. If they didn't, they wouldn't sell any guns and they'd be out of business. So what I think is the best may not be what you think is the best.

My recommendation would be to buy a full size model with some type of combat sights. That is about the most common version you will see. Chances are that you'll buy more than one 1911 after the first one. Then you can start experimenting with different sizes and features.

 

[JTQ]

fishblade2 wrote,
I would like to know some of the brands that are great without upgrades and ones that would be made even better with upgrades? So which ones would be great stock and which ones would be best to buy for the aftermarket pieces? I know they are going to be kinda expensive and I don't mind that because I want to get a good one. Along with the brand I'm not sure what I might want to change for them. There are so many upgrades for a 1911 that can be changed,but for you what do you see as the most beneficial changes to be made on the 1911 if any? Along with this where can I find a listing of all 1911 model upgrades? Thanks!

Since this is the Glock era, and the only pistol experiences many people have is with Glocks, I think it is worthwhile to point out modifications to a 1911 are not the same as modifications to a Glock. The Glock is an assemblers pistol. Consider a Glock like a Leggo set. Take one piece out and put another piece in. It will fit and your pistol will work.

The 1911 is a gunsmith's pistol. Not all pieces will fit. There are at least 20 companies making 1911's (remember there is still only one company making the Glock) and just about all of them make their's a little different than the next guy. Be aware if you are "upgrading" your 1911 you are most likely going to need to pay somebody to make it work correctly.

Lt. Col Cooper said the only modifications you need to make to a 1911 is, a trigger you can manage, sights you can see, and have the pistol dehorned.

Here is a list of services from Harrison Custom with what he charges.

http://www.harrisoncustom.com/Services.aspx?cid=1

 

[vail2073]

There are so many 1911 manufacturers out there now. If you are planing on having a basic shooter/range/pretty gun it really depends on price. Springfield is a nice pistol. They have MANY different models that can cover all aspects. Colts a the original but can be a bit pricey. Kimber is a pretty good company. They can be pricey too but they do come standard with some features which would be considered upgrades by other companies. Sig has some nice designs with the traditional Sig Sauer twist. Dan Wesson is nice but pricey. Wilson,Ed Brown, Nighthawk are great CUSTOM pistols. Not necessary unless you want a "top of the line" weapon.

 

[Earlsbud]

I would encourage you to make your first 1911 a Govt. (full size) model. The three things most important to me as a shooter are the sights, trigger pull, and for comfort, a beavertail grip safety. The platform can be personalized to each individual shooter and changed at any time, so I would also encourage you to consider a stainless gun. Some major modifications you might choose to make along the way will require refinishing. Checkering the front strap, blending a grip safety, adding a mag well, etc.. With a stainless pistol it is just a matter of bead blasting to blend instead of costly refinishing like plating, blueing, etc.. Buying a better quality used gun opposed to buying a lesser new gun works for some. I would also narrow my choices to series 70 pistols and avoid the series 80. I also prefer the .45ACP caliber. While a 9mm or a 40 might expand, a 45 will never shrink. Good luck.

EDIT to ad: For my $ the Ruger is hard to beat.

 

[seamus30]

Hi, Don't mean to hijack the thread but I am looking for a 1911 as well and I have a couple of questions. A couple of guys have said if you want a collector you should buy a Colt. Is that because of the brand name itself? Are they of superior quality? Or are they just prettier? I'm assuming they shoot well and are accurate?

 

[mdThanatos]

It's the name, American made, original manufacturer. They, from what I have heard and read have changed in quality, some better some worse over the years but it's still a Colt.

 

[fishblade2]

okay I'll try to narrow it a little more just so when I start researching more I start in a better direction. Pardon me for being so broad with this. I am willing to pay 1000-1500 for the gun. I figured, as some have said, that getting a gun that already has many great parts on it will be better than actually buying a cheaper one and adding myself. I see one with better parts fitting correctly and have better tolerances. Overall I like a bigger beavertail on one, the sights don't matter completely because I could just change them out. Lastly the trigger is the biggest issue for me. I like lighter trigger pulls that are smooth. Again I am not familiar with the aftermarket for these guns. i know they make wider and thinner, longer and shorter triggers and so on.. The list is too long! :banghead: So I dont know if I was to get an upgraded trigger if it would require a person grinding the parts of the trigger down or if I could actually buy a different trigger setup that would make it lighter and more smooth. Those are the big things. I guess since there are so many aftermarkets for these guns is it safe to say that any of the upgrades I want I should buy from the company that makes the gun? I don't think crossing brand parts would operate so smoothly but I could be wrong. Lastly Could I get a little more detail on what some people have found to be useful upgrades? I ask this because I know that many say eventually after you made the first couple upgrades (major ones) you can't really tell a difference after that. Thanks for all the help guys!

 

[mljdeckard]

There is nothing that makes Colts significantly more valuable than other makers. It's not like you are going to buy a new Colt and sell it ten years from now for a profit. The ones I would consider collector's items are G.I. guns that were brought home by soldiers, that are still in original condition. Prepare to pay for one.

You can buy a trigger set that is more smooth. The ideal trigger breaks cleanly, like pulling your finger through a glass rod. After that, it's a question of weight. Most of us think a carry gun shouldn't be lighter than 4-5 lbs. (That's where my Kimber came from the factory, and I haven't messed with it.) Some competition shooters like them lighter, like 3 lbs or less. I THINK, the key is, if you get a trigger you like, and works well, DON'T MESS WITH IT. There are books and youtube videos and clips online at Brownell's, etc, but I don't want to fix something that isn't broken.

I wouldn't be TOO concerned about non-standard parts. If you order a replacement part from somewhere like Midway or Brownell's, they have gunsmiths on the phone who are there to guide you through it and tell you if there is a line of parts that is non-standard, and which problems to look for.

I also strongly suspect, (even if I cannot ethically say it outright,) that if you wanted a detailed guide to messing with 1911s, you could google "kuhnhausen 1911 manual", you might find a free online pdf to the definitive 1911 shop manual. And they are fun to tinker with, but really, it's more of a hobby to mess with when you have more than one. Meaning, if you do something bad and your gun is down for a while, you won't be without one in the meantime.

I would recommend, buy one that is as close to the one you want as possible. Go to a rental range, shoot a couple, see what you like and what you don't. Buy that one. THEN, go to a pawn shop, find a beater that you can tinker with, and if you screw it up a couple of times, it won't break your heart.

 

[hq]

I like lighter trigger pulls that are smooth. Again I am not familiar with the aftermarket for these guns. i know they make wider and thinner, longer and shorter triggers and so on.. The list is too long! :banghead: So I dont know if I was to get an upgraded trigger if it would require a person grinding the parts of the trigger down or if I could actually buy a different trigger setup that would make it lighter and more smooth.

I'd go for something that has a light, crisp trigger pull from the factory and if that's not good enough, either change the springs, have a gunsmith do a trigger job, or both. If you're patient and confident enough, you might even buy a stoning fixture, arkansas + india stones and a loop (for magnification) and do your own trigger job, but that's not for the faint of heart. It's easy to ruin the hammer if you're not careful.

I do my own triggers, but that's a result of 18 years of practise and many hammers and sears I've turned into paperweights, as well as a couple of scary moments when overambitious stoning has turned a hair trigger into a machine gun. Not something I'd recommend with your first 1911.

Wide aftermarket triggers are for Colt Gold Cups, they have a wider trigger channel than GI spec guns. Long triggers were originally "early" style, short triggers originally came with 1911A1 to shorten the length of pull and make some room inside the trigger guard. Nowadays you can get either and anything in between, depending on your preference. Some aftermarket sear+hammer+trigger kits are drop-in upgrades, but that depends on how well they match the frame. There are some slight manufacturing tolerances in some guns and they can make a world of difference with the ever-so-important sear to hammer contact angles. It's always a good idea to have everything checked by a gunsmith when you change parts - fitting may or may not be required.

All in all, 1911 has potential for one of the cleanest breaking triggers of all service pistols and it's almost beyond belief what a competent gunsmith can do fairly easily. Compared to some of my dedicated target 1911:s most service pistols' triggers, even very decent ones, feel like staple guns.

 

[Double Vision]

Lots of good advice here on this discussion.
Find a gun shop that has a good selection and try them on for size.
When you find the right one, you'll know it.
Good luck!

 

[JTQ]

the sights don't matter completely because I could just change them out.

Sights do matter. Lots of guys like to recommend the Springfield Range Officer, but if you notice it has adjustable sights. The sight cut on the slide (Bomar cut usually) is completely different for most adjustable sights. I think there is only one fixed sight replacement for pistols with this sight cut, and interestingly enough it is made by Harrison Design, in the link I gave you earlier.

There are a handful of different sight cuts for fixed sights too. You may find that the aftermarket sight you want is not available for the sight cuts you have. You'll either need to do some grinding or some welding to get them to fit. Make sure you check that out before hand and have a plan what you want to do. It will save you some time and effort.

 

[tuj]

Have a long hard look at the STI Spartan. I would highly recommend one as a first 1911.

The STI has an adjustable rear sight, fiber optic front sight, front cocking serrations. It has a very nice trigger for a factory gun. Its quite accurate. Its reliable.

Also, 1911forum.com is your friend. You are going to find that most upgrades in the 1911 world involve fitting in some form or fashion. A 1911 is not like an AR-15; you can't just drop in most 'upgrades'. Doing a trigger job involves stones and files as opposed to just swapping parts.

 

[fishblade2]

thank you guys for so much information on this! I will look around to see if I can find a selection of 1911. The only one I have held before was a wilson Combat X-Tac and I LOVE IT! Great feel, easy to see sights, and AMAZING TRIGGER BREAK!!! but when the price hit me in the face i put it back quickly... I am going to look for one that fits me from the box. Since I am a beginner in this field (1911's) I've have always thought that they were upgrade guns. I have seen so many people with custom 1911's that I believed that they were all mostly guns that needed to be upgraded to be great... Now I know most parts spoke of already are internal parts but if I wanted to do some external parts that would be better what is the most fought after aftermarket piece that most seem to get? And with aftermarket exterior parts are they just as a pain to "fit" your gun by sanding, grinding etc? This feels like a gun that I would enjoy in the end but even with just a couple of upgrade afterwards I could be looking at a heavy price tag between parts and a gunsmith doing work What is the average pull on the trigger for this gun style? oh and lastly what are some of the problems that occur with the 1911? Some people complain of weak magazine springs or not the right tension on the springs in the gun. Minor things that makes you have to "baby" the gun. So not necessarily negative things (they are welcomed) but mostly just things that are a little more upkeep for the gun (this is another reason I don't like upgrading them because it could cause more problems).

 

[Skylerbone]

The truth of the matter is that there aren't any drop-in parts for a 1911. Sure many people buy parts, "drop" them in and report great success. End of story? Not hardly.

While changing out say fire control parts (always dangerous) a guy may report a lighter, crisper pull and it being the best $100 he ever spent. Two years later he may notice for the first time his grip safety doesn't work or worse, he experiences hammer follow or trigger bounce or full auto fire or...

Aftermarket for the 1911 is as varied as anything else, remember the $20 "Solar Clothes Dryer"? A nylon rope. Quality parts can certainly be had if you do some research while keeping in mind the above "drop-in" guy and that not all 1911s are built properly to facilitate parts changes.

I may see things differently than others but here's my take: if you buy a Yugo, do you expect the money saved to fund upgrades or repairs? Are you buying for economy or performance? Finally, how on earth do you shoehorn a V-8 under the hood and mate it to that pitiful transaxle?

A Colt Combat Elite or DW Heritage in your price range. Spend additional upgrade money where it counts, at the gunsmith's.

 

[hq]

The only one I have held before was a wilson Combat X-Tac and I LOVE IT! Great feel, easy to see sights, and AMAZING TRIGGER BREAK!!!

X-Tac is a great gun, pricey but definitely one of the nicest models around. However, I wouldn't worry that much about the trigger, 3½lbs is easily achievable with virtually any 1911. A lightweight aftermarket trigger kit with a built-in overtravel screw and a good trigger job is the ticket to glassy crisp 2-2½lbs if that's what you want. In a carry gun I definitely wouldn't go below 3lbs, maybe even 4, but range guns are a whole different ball game.

Another tip that might drive your local gun dealer crazy: when buying a 1911, try to get one that has as little slop between the frame and slide (and slide and barrel) as possible. On a few occasions I've had close to a dozen same model guns - the dealer's whole inventory - on the counter to choose one that has the tightest tolerances right out of the box. If the dealer is willing to do that for you, remember to pay list price for the gun and buy some accessories like magazines at the same time to make it worth his while.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

If your budget is $1500 and want a new gun - a good answer at that price point is a Dan Wesson Valor. Great slide to frame fit, good parts choice, moderate amount of hand fitting, mild dehorn, good factory trigger, nice finish.

You could also look at a Springfield TRP, although I think the Wesson is a nicer gun. STI has some great guns in the $1100 plus price range - I don't personally like the huge roll marks and the wide cocking serrations.

If you don't mind a used gun, look for a used Les Baer. That overall, would punch the ticket for performance, looks, and a collectible gun.