1911 - Does Size Matter?

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Punkermonkey

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This may seem like a stupid question to the people in the know but, I'll ask it any way.

The 1911A1 come is several different frame sizes such as commander, compact, micro, and officer. I just recently purchased a series 80 compact and am wondering if this is the same size (parts wise) as the officer model? I am looking to get different grips and such but have had very little luck in finding parts for the "compact" model.

I am looking to get a full length guide rod, extended safety and slide release we well.

Could someone please clue me in!!!
 
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The compact & officer's model are interchangeable...The Commander is lighter, and has slight dimensional differences...
Regardless, you have a good pistol...There are some on this forum that seem to think reduced barrel size on these Colts are somehow inherently doomed to fail....:confused:
 
There are some on this forum that seem to think reduced barrel size on these Colts are somehow inherently doomed to fail....

Maybe that's because of the relatively high number of owners that post messages complaining that their having functional troubles with their sub-compact guns... :uhoh:

Anyway, in and of itself the shorter barrels aren't the problem. What is of concern is higher slide velocity caused by cutting 1 1/2 to 2 inches off of the slide's front end and reducing the weight, combined with high recoil spring stress because of the shortened recoil spring tunnel. Add to this a shortened slide run-up, and magazine spring tension becomes critical. While this doesn't mean that the gun must fail, it does make failure much more probable.

If the pistol is a toy this probably doesn't matter. If it's a weapon then reliability should be of first concern.

You may not be having a problem, but those posts I mentioned show that too many others are.
 
Right. That is because as you shorten the barrel, you shorten the slide, and that reduces the amount of mass being moved by a powder charge that was balanced for the longer (5" barrel) slide. As a result, the timing of the gun is sped up and this causes the malfunctions. With the commander size, timing was simply retarded by a slightly heavier recoil spring weight. On the officers-sized guns (AKA ultra, micro) that have 3-3.5" barrels, it was found that singular springs often did not retard the timing sufficiently for the gun to be reliable. So manufacturers have gone with dual spring variable weight setup that works a whole lot better.

As for parts, most all are interchangible except those associated with the lengths of the guns and the parts unique to the sizes of the guns. For example, slide releases, safeties, grip screws, etc. are all the same size in regard to gun size. Full length guide rods, recoil springs, barrels, slide and frame lengths will vary because of the length dimensions for each size.

When it comes to grips, the question will be whether the grips are for a full-sized grip (both full-sized frame and commander frame) or the smaller officer's size which is a bit shorter. Of course, you also have the option of regular or thin grips which also have different bushings and screws based on the grip thickness (not on gun size).
 
Welcome to the wonderful world of 1911 autos!

Your questions are not stupid and the responses are factual so far too.

"Bottom feeders" cycle better with longer slides. Of course, extra barrel length also adds extra velocity to your bullet speeds and aids in accuracy due to the longer sight radius.

Everyone needs to own at least one great 5" 1911 sometime in their life!!!


HOWEVER . . .

Today's CNC-made 1911 compact firearms can be made to be extremely reliable, vs. the "old days" a couple of decades ago when MOST all 5" 1911s weren't very reliable until they were properly tweaked by a REAL gunsmith.


SMALLER 1911s DO exist today that come already set up to meet all your stated requirements. My suggestion is to sell, or trade your excellent basic Colt for one of those guns already set up by the factory the way you really want your gun.

The difference you'll pay this way may not be any more than if you buy unwarrantied, aftermarket parts to convert your Colt into the gun you want . . . and the reliability will be there too.

Unfortunately, Colt currently doesn't make an ambi-safety 3" version that would satisfy your desires.

Thus, I'd recommend you consider the Kimber. Specifically, the 3" Ultra CDP.

I'm a lefty and I've owned mine since the first ones came out.

Aluminum frame to keep carry weight low,
"Melt-down package" that rounds all edges for better concealibility and COMFORT against the body (important for a CCW gun),
Ambi-safety,
Nice grips,
Checkered front and rear grip areas,
Bull barrel
Full length guide rod
Dual spring recoil system for great reliability
Night sights . . .

2068138ULTRA.jpg


Everything you want except the extended slide release. I assure you, you do not need an extended slide release. I had one on my competition 1911 and it was totally an unnecessary waste of money.

My Kimber groups five into an inch at ten yards and has always been utterly reliable with FULL POWER defensive ammo . . . which is sooooo important.

No, it will not always feed my custom handloaded 200gn. LSWC ammo that I've loaded at EXTREMELY low power levels for fast practice with my full-size 1911 . . . but that is the trade off with the necessity of a stiff, dual spring to make the 3" 1911 super reliable with normal power ammo.

Yes, I could replace the dual spring with a very light single spring to shoot the soft-kicking stuff but I don't . . . for it usually feeds the light stuff really well. AND . . . if I get a failure to feed, I get a chance to practice my "Tap-Rack-Bang" drill that ALL auto shooters need to practice anyway!

I'm sure others will have other opinions to offer you too that may differ from my experience.

However, as I told my wife Saturday as we left the range, "Honey, my little Kimber is MY perfect concealed carry firearm."

I trust my life totally, and on a daily basis, to this wonderful compact, officer-sized 1911 . . . that is still in "box-stock" original configuration. It's perfect . . . and needs no modifications that might make it less reliable.

T.
 
Hi,

My Kimber has the shorter, "Officer-sized" grip.

Although I have a few Colt officer magazines for the gun, which are all 6-round magazines, the Kimber came with a couple of Kimber officer-sized seven round magazines.

I've never experienced any problem with the Kimber 7-rounders, so that's what I have in mine.

Thus, I've got seven in the mag and one in the tube at all times.

Eight rounds of 230gn. .45ACP is a reasurring feeling when you are walking in shorts and t-shirt in this hot Georgia summer heat . . . knowing that your light, narrow little .45 is snugged tightly to your side in a belt holster . . . totally concealed.

T.

PS: I have tons of 8-round Wilson and McCormick magazines in the car and home for backup ammo for my little Kimber, plus a 10-rounder. All will work in an officer-sized 1911, though they look a little funny.
 
The larger Commander is easier to shoot accurately.

With that said, does size matter?

Yes size matters; however, what you're able to do with your "penetrative ability" matters more :eek:
 
Today's CNC-made 1911 compact firearms can be made to be extremely reliable, vs. the "old days" a couple of decades ago when MOST all 5" 1911s weren't very reliable until they were properly tweaked by a REAL gunsmith.

A couple of decades would be what? 20 0r 30 years or the late 70's to late 80's... Right?

This was not "Ol' Slabside's finest era, for that you need to go backward from the middle-latter 1960's. Interesting enough, we seldom see complaints posted about guns made in this era. And it would seem that no one has anything bad to say about earlier guns. Hopefully you are not saying that the hundreds of thousands of .45 pistols turned out between 1942 to 1945 "weren't reliable until they were properly tweaked by a REAL gunsmith," are you?

No, the great bulk of complaints are about guns that were made recently, and your favorite maker, Kimber seems to be at the top of the list right now. And while all sizes come in for some flack, the sub-compacts seem to get more then what you'd expect would be their share.

Think not? Well go to the search feature and use the key word "Kimber."
 
So...

Could one say, that 70's to 80's stretch of unreliability
can be correlated to when Colt's patent on the 1911 design expired,
and every Tom, Dick and Harry started trying to make and market 1911's?
I'v always thunk it so. Just want to heared it from someone who knowed.

:)
horge
 
YES

Quote: Everyone needs to own at least one great 5" 1911 sometime in their life!!!
---------
...

Yep, on the drawing board, for sure..

I will say this, that size IMHO, does not matter when it comes to recoil, or accuracy, between a Colt Defender and a Colt Commander. As I own the one, the Defender and, at my gun range, they let me shoot 50 rounds with one of their Colt Commanders. I found both, the accuracy, and more, a key feature to me, that the recoil was identical, making for, IMHO, the Defenders smaller, CCW, size the right choice, for me.

I might add, that as mentioned, due to 230gr made for 5 inch barrels, etc., that with using 185gr ammo, I have had no feed problems, as "could be the case" every now and then with 230gr ammo.

And, on the flip side of this coin, the few feed jams that did occur with the 230gr with my Defender, also put my training of quick, and accurate, clearing of the jam, and back on target, to the test, which is a must, with any gun.

Surprises come in all shapes and sizes and, dealing with them when least expected, is part of the program, either quickly and accurately, or being caught by surprise, into slow-motion, with one's pants down.


LS
 
Could one say, that 70's to 80's stretch of unreliability
can be correlated to when Colt's patent on the 1911 design expired,
and every Tom, Dick and Harry started trying to make and market 1911's?
I'v always thunk it so. Just want to heared it from someone who knowed.

Not exactly. John Browning owned the basic patents on which the 1911 pistol was based, and Colt leased the right to bulid guns under those patents.

Browning took those patents out in or about 1896, and they expired sometime during the 1920's. However no one other then Colt was interested in making copies or clones until the 1970's. The problem then and now is that these other makers didn't follow the standard USGI blueprints and material sepcifications, and didn't have anything close to the quality control procedures used by Colt and other wartime government contractors. Then as time went by they started making cost-cutting shortcuts here and there.

The Colt company itself went through times of financial hardship and bad management - and this reflected on the quality of their products.

In it's original form the 1911 pistol is not inexpensive to make - if it's done right. Buyers still think they can buy a pistol that's identical in all respects to the one dad or grand-dad had. The fact of the matter is that that isn't going to happen.
 
This was not "Ol' Slabside's finest era, for that you need to go backward from the middle-latter 1960's. Interesting enough, we seldom see complaints posted about guns made in this era. And it would seem that no one has anything bad to say about earlier guns.

Well, this has a lot to do with there being a whole lot less of these (now) older guns being even shot today by new shooters. Those guns are now well-broken in and fixed, and most are retired to the gun safes.

You'll always hear more complaints about currently-sold merchandise vs. older merchandise in all product areas in our society for the same reason . . . because that's what current consumers are buying and using . . . at any given time in history.

FACT . . .
There were times, not to many decades ago, when one typically could NOT go out and buy a brand new Colt 1911 and expect it to be reliable at all. Oh how we sometimes forget.

This, of course, was pre-internet forum days, so us old timers just bitched between each other at the range . . . and a LITTLE of this dissatisfaction would sometimes eek out into the pages of gun magazines we bought that frankly just catered to selling advertising from those same companies (making the crappy guns that didn't work out of the box) so NEW buyers would buy a new gun from them. You know what I'm taking about.

THE TWO REAL GOOD THINGS THAT CAME OUT OF THE "CRAPPY" AGE?

1. Colt's lack of reliability back then (as well as the few other companies then making 1911s) helped spawn an incredible amount of aftermarket suppliers who made high grade parts us buyers demanded that the companies refused to give us!

2. Just as important to all of us serious shooters, AND to the survivability and popularity of the 1911 of today . . . it helped launch many a gunsmith into successful businesses in every state . . . to make those jam-o-matic and/or inaccurate 1911s run as they should have run out of the box from the beginning!


Hopefully you are not saying that the hundreds of thousands of .45 pistols turned out between 1942 to 1945 "weren't reliable until they were properly tweaked by a REAL gunsmith," are you?

OF COURSE NOT! Those were made like the AK-47s of today! Looser 'n schidt, they would shuck just about any old cartridge you fed 'em. Drop it in the mud, get sand in it, and the thing would always shoot!

As an old grizzled drill sargeant told me years ago as a new recruit, "If you want to pick out a GOOD .45, SHAKE 'EM! A reliable one will rattle a lot!"

There was a lot of truth to that too. These wouldn't jam and leave the poor G.I. helpless to the charging Jap's bayonet. Then again, they were also the .45s that created the belief in many people that one couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a G.I. 45!

A highly accurate 1911 .45 will be a tightly fit one . . . but one that doesn't jam, that the two concepts are hard to make work without accurate manufacture and gunsmithing skill. CNC manufacture has allowed the industry to give us more reliable 1911s due to higher tolerance fits. Of course, it is still up to the factory workers to adjust the fit of a tight tolerance gun. Kimber brought the 1911 into the CNC age!

[No, the great bulk of complaints are about guns that were made recently, and your favorite maker, Kimber seems to be at the top of the list right now.[/QUOTE]

First, I never claimed Kimber was my favorite maker. Like my internet "name" implies, I'm a rabid, die-hard S&W wheelgun fan! My favorite custom N-frames are too wide and heavy to carry concealed usually, so I use a compact 1911 "bottom feeder" for this purpose.

What I said is that I MY early Kimber that has been utterly reliable AND accurate. This is a fact. If it bobbled at all I would have traded it off in a heartbeat years ago!

Later, the early type II Kimbers had problems with the external extractors. During this time they garnered a reputation on the internet sites as "jam-o-matics" and from a company that was rude and didn't care. Ironically, the internet crowd also buzzed with positive comments when Kimber released it's initital CNC-made products that were much cheaper and more reliable than the old guns made using the older, more expensive ways.

Kimber's entry into the marketplace woke up a lot of old, complacent companies and Kimber's greatest contribution to the history of the 1911 may just be that it forced the 1911 into a new period of better-fitting guns at good prices due to the introduction of CNC methods.


And while all sizes come in for some flack, the sub-compacts seem to get more then what you'd expect would be their share.

You surely can't argue with the laws of physics! This will always be true, and the manufacturing excellence MUST be there in a small 1911 auto or you'll have problems! Mine . . . is wonderful.

Think not? Well go to the search feature and use the key word "Kimber."

I'm on various forums of various high-end products, and there are always a lot of "experts" who chime in on various issues who are simply repeating commonly heard gripes . . . and yet who have absolutely no experience with the products being mentioned.

Surely, this is also a fact on this forum at times. Not always of course, but you know for a fact that this is so on this one.

I'm in business (but not in firearms), and we've read that a happy customer tells only six people but an unhappy customer tells 41 . . . and grips about their experience for an average of seven years.

While Colt slept, the Kimber company roared into the marketplace and sold a ton of guns while Colt was considering stopping all 1911 production and discontinuing most of it's models. I'm sure you remember that period too. With lots of products come lots of silent, happy customers . . . and lots of unhappy customers who will gripe for years and tell lots of people. It is a numbers game.

I've reported my very, very positive experience with my earlier Kimber. Would I buy a brand new one today to go with my original one. Absolutely NOT . . . for I'm no Roy Rogers . . . I don't tote twin guns!;)

I could have recommended to the original poster to trade his Colt 1991 for an Ed Brown, Les Baer or several other top compacts. However, those firearms ain't even close to the price range of his original gun. The Kimber would be comparable to the price he would net having into his Colt after he paid a gunsmith to upgrade his Colt, and I imagine it would make him very, very happy.

I've had various gunsmiths work on my older generation Colt 1911s before. Some gunsmiths are great, some mediocre, and some should never be allowed to work on a client's gun. It is always a crapshoot when you give your expensive gun to a 1911 gunsmith, unless you join a year-long waiting period for one of the famous gurus. Even then, I'm sure they'd tell you there are some people they couldn't satisfy no matter what they did.

Thanks for writing! I don't disagree with you of course, but there are lots of Kimber owners who have had no problems with their firearms.

T.
 
Hey all, a lot of good info here, I had a series 70 Gold Cup from 1973 to 1988 until it was stolen by my girlfriends son, In 1990 I bought a series 80 Gold Cup to replace it and was really afraid that it was going to be a piece junk, well I was wrong, it takes anything I feed it, my reloads, ball ammo, all I do is change recoil springs for different loads and it has yet to malfunction after 1000's of rounds, my friend has Kimbers and they are great guns, but I still love my Little Big Horse Colts, Semper Fi:D
 
"timing was simply retarded by a slightly heavier recoil spring weight. On the officers-sized guns (AKA ultra, micro) that have 3-3.5" barrels, it was found that singular springs often did not retard the timing sufficiently for the gun to be reliable. So manufacturers have gone with dual spring variable weight setup that works a whole lot better."

None of these are very effective methods.
The recoil spring exerts a rather small force when the 1911 is in battery.
The weight quoted are for the spring compressed at recoil.

The margin in the 1911 design goes away as the slide is lightened and barrel length reduced.
A gun can no longer be assembled 'armory style' from a bucket of parts and produce a well functioning weapon. The lack of real standards for these smaller guns further adds to the issue.
Compacts can be made reliable, but it requires that expensive thing called 'hand work' and it must be performed by a knowledgeable smith.
Both of mine run all the time, every time.
I bet my life on them.
 
Just bought my 5th Kimber.
All are Ultras (3 inch barrel) except one Compact (4 inch).
If all my pistols were as reliable and accurate as my little Kimbers I'd be happy.

I took this new Ultra Covert II out of the box, checked the barrel for obstructions, loaded the (factory) magazine with 200gr lead SWC and began shooting. I only put 100 rounds through it but I suspect it will be like the other Kimbers, totally reliable.:)

KimberUltraColvert.gif
 
None of these are very effective methods.
The recoil spring exerts a rather small force when the 1911 is in battery.
The weight quoted are for the spring compressed at recoil.

The margin in the 1911 design goes away as the slide is lightened and barrel length reduced.
A gun can no longer be assembled 'armory style' from a bucket of parts and produce a well functioning weapon. The lack of real standards for these smaller guns further adds to the issue.
Compacts can be made reliable, but it requires that expensive thing called 'hand work' and it must be performed by a knowledgeable smith.
Both of mine run all the time, every time.
I bet my life on them.

That's funny, seems like the springs have been a key adjustment to making the smaller 1911s work.

Just what is this magic of "hand work" to which you refer? What "hand work" is performed on the smaller guns to make them more reliable? How does the "hand work" compensate for the reduction of mass?
 
The original post says:
"The 1911A1 come is several different frame sizes such as commander, compact, micro, and officer."
The 1911A1 is pretty much limited to the milspec originals or clones (the A1 designation) The A1 is where all of the lore started as it was arguably the finest combat handgun of all time.Modern designs still try to beat it, but somehow fall a bit short. The variety of offshoots speaks to the original design genius,but each give up a little of the A1 basic design.Just my humble opinion.Chuck.
 
I have a Series 80 Officer's Model as well as a Series 80 Commander. The Officer's just wasn't reliable until I replaced the recoil spring. The Commander didn't have this problem, and tolerated a couple of different spring designs without complaint.

I admit this is only one instance, which is hardly proof, but I believe that there is some truth to the "smaller ones have to be absolutely correct" line of thought. If you don't want to ever have to have a gunsmith adjust things (or do it yourself, if you're competent...), a larger frame size might be better.

If you gotta have the smaller frames for CCW, they can be made reliable even if they are not out of the box. And it is really neat that there are so many parts available.
 
Chances are that any modern commercial 1911 will be short of the mark. Even the semi-custom ones may have something lacking if there isn't careful quality control. This doesn't mean you won't get a good gun without coughing up big bucks, but I'd put about $200-300 aside in one's 1911 budget to pay for whatever tweaking might be necessary. A lot of this might be a simple parts change. If you don't need it, be happy and buy more ammo.
 
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