1911 Experts: locked firing pin stop?

[Control]

One issue with the 1911 is that when the firing pin is in, the firing pin stop can fall out! While not common, this may cause you to lose your firing pin which would be “bad.”

A good fit on the firing pin stop should prevent this, but I am not sure if I am comfortable with even that solution.

Has anyone ever had a firing pin stop come off or block the firing pin?

D&L Sports has a firing pin stop that screws to the frame. http://www.dlsports.com/locking_1911_firing_pin_stop.html

However, this solution seems like overkill to me. You only need to prevent the firing pin stop from dropping directly down and you shouldn’t need that kind of pressure to keep in it its wedge. Plus, I don't like screws in my 1911 that prevent hand disassembly of the basic parts.

Has anyone seen of or heard of a more elegant solution?

Wouldn’t a small spring loaded push pin above or below the firing pin work also? One could put a base on the pin that traps it behind the firing pin stop to absolutely assure that the pin never comes out when the firing pin stop is on. Is there enough room on a low cut Bomar slide to still allow for the pin and spring? Is there enough room below the firing pin without hitting the cutout in the slide for the disconnector?

Thanks.

 

[Technosavant]

I've never even heard of such a failure. I have heard of some low quality stops breaking, but it would have to be a pretty craptacular one in order to fail and have the FP go for a short flight.

The only time the firing pin would not be holding the stop in place would be when it has just been struck by the hammer, and at that point the hammer is holding it in place.

A way to tell is a particular 1911 might possibly, in a fit of worst case scenario failures, fall prey to this is to remove the firing pin and spring and reinsert the stop. If it falls out just from gravity alone, then it might POSSIBLY, if the world goes completely to hell and you have managed to tick off every single diety the supernatural world might possibly hold, happen. But I still think that it is highly unlikely. You would be much more likely to have potentially lethal bad luck in the form of a failure to return to battery or a failure to extract or eject.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

More to the point, insert a fired casing or a dummy round, then try depressing the firing pin and see if it goes far enough forward with a round in the pipe to allow the stop to move down.

I don't think it does.

 

[1911Tuner]

Drop the Stop

Yes. It can happen, and I've seen it happen on a few occasions. It's never caused the pin to exit the tunnel, but rather caused the lower edge of the stop to catch on the hammer, preventing the slide's return to battery.

A fresh firing pin spring of the correct specs will prevent it. The springs that Colt uses in its Series 80 pistols asren't of the right specs. Too short and too weak. Of the instances that I've seen this happen, all except one were on Series 80 Colts. The other was on a badly neglected GI pistol in which the spring was broken.

 

[res1b3uq]

right on, Hawk

I had to pull out my old Auto Ord,(loose FP stop) and check, but no, the FP does not clear the back of the stop when it hits a bullet. Maybe if dry firing, this could happen.

 

[Control]

1911Tuner: I wonder why Colt uses weak and short springs in the series 80 designs. Is there some interaction between the spring and series 80 plunger that they are compensating for or do they just not put good springs in there?

res1b3uq: I don't think the firing pin stop can come off during dry firing. The frame and extractor hold up the stop when everything is locked up.

Hawkmoon: If the chamber is deep then the firing pin could extrude past the locking point when a round is in the chamber, but let’s assume a reasonable chamber depth which would stop the firing pin from going too far forward because it hits the back of the shell. After ignition, the slide goes back and inertia causes the firing pin to be further pressed forward. Assuming the shell casing is held by the extractor, the shell casing should prevent the firing pin from going too far forward which should keep the back of the firing pin holding the stop up. Now, after the shell is extracted, you have a period where the slide is still going back and the firing pin may go to far forward and not be in the hole in the stop. Also, if the extractor tension is not good enough when the spent shell is in the extractor then the pin could move forward before it is ejected. On the return trip, the slide should be forcing the firing pin back which is a good thing.


It looks like the secret here is to have a good strong firing pin return spring and perhaps a well tuned extractor. This should assure that by the time the round is ejected the firing pin is back at the start position which locks up the firing pin stop.

The extra added safety of a tightly fitted firing pin stop should also help, but it looks like if your firing pin return spring is strong you shouldn't need it.

 

[1911Tuner]

Colt

Control,

Don't know why Colt uses wimpy springs in the Series 80 pistols. Only reason that I can come up with is...because the firing pin block makes the guns more drop safe...a full-length/strength spring isn't necessary, and the weaker spring
enhances reliable ignition in the event that the timing of the pin release is a little off.

You're correct on the inertia question. The pin getting ahead of the stop doesn't happen during ignition, but rather as the slide moves rearward. Remember that the empty case has mass, too...and will tend to stand still while the slide moves away from it in recoil. If the extractor tension isn't quite enough to hold it fast against the breechface, it pivots slightly...opening up a space for the firing pin to go. The stop drops slightly, and about the time it's past the point to let the butt-end of the pin back through the port, the slide hits the stop surface in the frame. Firing pin slams rearward, wedging the stop in place...and it catches the top of the hammer on the return trip, stopping the slide. I suppose that if the spring is broken or severely weakened, the stop could fall completely out at the terminal point of the slide's rearward travel, and launch the pin...but I've never seen it happen. In all cases, it falls just far enough to cause a failure to return to battery.

 

[AirForceShooter]

Happened to me with a Remington Rand WW II issue.
I replaced the firing pin spring and all is well.
\
AFS

 

[Rexrider]

My Kimber had a loose firing pin stop. I never encountered the problem that was described. I guess the firing pin spring was strong enough to prevent it. The problem I did have was the extractor would "clock" causing cases to eject in various directions as I emptied a mag. It was not a big deal except for an empty casing bouncing off my head at least once every mag. But that did get annoying.

I had a new firing pin stop fitted. Problem solved. A quick and cheap fix.

 

[Jim Watson]

Back when Bill Wilson was a gunsmith and not a manufacturer, he offered a firing pin stop lock. Kind of complicated, it was a set screw in the slide UNDER the stop, and a hole through the stop to reach it. Insert firing pin and extractor, slide in the slide stop; then reach through the hole with an Allen wrench and back out the set screw until it locked the stop in place.

A snug firing pin stop and GI or Wolff firing pin spring are so much simpler.

I have seen firing pin stops with a slight recess on the inside around the hole so the end coil of the spring acts as a detent.

 

[1911Tuner]

Detent

Jim:

>I have seen firing pin stops with a slight recess on the inside around the hole so the end coil of the spring acts as a detent.<
*********************

And whoever took the time to machine it wasted their time and somebody else's money...'cause the spring doesn't reach the stop.

 

[Bart Noir]

I saw a rather new ParaOrdnance show exactly the problem that 1911Tuner described, and the slide would not go all the way forward. Actually, it didn't start doing that until it was my turn to shoot it...... The owner didn't blame me though.

Even when I put the FP stop back in place it looked like the firing pin didn't come back all the way.

Someday I'll ask my Dad's 2nd wife's 2nd son-in-law if a new firing pin spring fixed that problem. Or if the channel was plugged or the firing pin broken.

Bart Noir

 

[Magnumite]

I had this happen to me this weekend during a pin match with a normally very reliable gun. Second round of a magazine got what initially looked like a double feed. I cleared it, replaced the mag and first round wouldn't feed. I looked at the top round closer this time and saw about 1/2" or whatever of firing pin. Firing pin stop was on the ground.

I was firing a large amount of lead bullet ammo and some of the lube and fouling was blown up into the firing pin tunnel. This was observed when I went to put it back together and the firing pin stayed down after I depressed it to install the firing pin stop. It surprises me since this is a Foster slide/frame gun and the firing pin hole/firing pin clearance is small. A little elbow grease Mojo and all was clear and running againn.

I checked the firing pin for gouges, grooves and the spring tension and all that checked out okay. From the discussion here, I would say the firing pin spring tension might have died though it seemed oaky at the time. I'll be giving it a detail cleaning tonight and get back with you about what I find.

 

[Control]

>> Bart Noir: “Even when I put the FP stop back in place it looked like the firing pin didn't come back all the way.”

>> Magnumite: “This was observed when I went to put it back together and the firing pin stayed down after I depressed it to install the firing pin stop.”

In both these cases, it could be seen as a feature that the gun won't lock or the firing pin stop drops off. If the firing pin cannot return to its rear most position, then you probably want to know that right away so that you don't drop the slide.

Again, when you release the slide, inertia will cause the firing pin to continue traveling forward after lockup. Without a good firing pin return spring you could find yourself in big trouble.

Also, if there is muck causing the firing pin to extrude out from the breach face then you really don’t want to drop that slide. It looks like Magnumite got lucky that the round caught on the pin vs. feeding as the gun may have misfired with the pin stuck out like that.

Magnumite: I am very interested in your investigation. Let us know what you find when you clean the gun.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I never thought this apprentice would disagree with his master, but ... I respectfully disagree.

What's the mechanism at work? Newton's laws -- for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

The action is a controlled explosion that propels a hunk of metal forward down a metal tube. The reaction is something moving in the opposite direction.

At the moment of the controlled explosion, the components that generate the explosion are all neatly packaged up in a little brass cannister. The forces generated radiate in all directions. Forward, they propel the bullet. Outward, they momentarily expand the case against the chamber walls. And rearward -- what do they act on? Not the slide, Boss -- the ONLY way the rearward vector can act on the slide is by shoving the cartridge head back against the breechface.

 

[DBR]

Pardon my confusion; but is not the breachface part of the slide? And, even if it only acted thru the chamber walls, is not the barrel locked to the slide? It is not a reaction to the "Explosion" but rather to the momentum of the bullet and ejecta.

As I understand the firing event of smokeless powder, it is a controlled burn. An "explosion" generally describes a detonation where the flame front propogates at supersonic speed thereby inducing a shock wave that shatters its surroundings.

 

[DBR]

On my 1911 guns the firing pin stop is over the frame when the gun is in battery, so it cannot fallout at that point. The firing pin stop is also pushed up by the hammer on recoil.

So, the most likely possibility is that it would fallout on recoil as inertia causes the firing pin to not follow the slide. Probably when the slide hits the end of its travel and jars against the frame.

On my guns, I use an extra strength Wolff firing pin spring, a properly fitted firing pin stop and a good recoil spring. If the recoil spring is weak the slide will recoil too fast. If the firing pin spring is too weak then the firing pin cannot follow the slide back.

One more thing: I slightly chamfer the inside of the firing pin hole and the head of the firing pin to make it easier for them to realign if they should shift a bit.

Has worked for me.

 

[1911Tuner]

Disagree

Respectful Hawk is forgetting that, once bullet has departed, the forces driving it against the breechblock have dissipated, leaving cartridge casing
at the mercy of Mr. Newton.

DBR,

When the slide hits the impact surface in the frame, the firing pin is slammed violently backward...so the falling stop must occur at some point before that.

 

[Onmilo]

I have not once ever, in twenty five years of working on 1911 pistols, seen a fire pin stop fall out of a 1911 pistol.
Not while I was working on them in the Army and not once in the civilian shop.

I guess this is something that happens to tricked out raceguns using the latest technology in superlight springs and all titanium parts.
Speaking of titanium firing pins,,,,I have seen one of those melted from the flame jet from a burst primer. Not pretty.

Stay with factory specs and real steel parts and this might not be an issue anybody needs to worry about.

 

[1911Tuner]

Tricked

Onmilo said:

>I guess this is something that happens to tricked out raceguns using the latest technology in superlight springs and all titanium parts.<
****************

All the ones that I've seen do it were box-stock Series 80 Colts and one USGI with a broken spring. No raceguns or tricky stuff. Part of the problem may have been due to the Series 80 plungers malfunctioning, but when full-spec springs were installed, the problem went away.

 

[DBR]

1911tuner:

Of course you are right as usual. I was thinking that if the firing pin was forward because of a weak spring maybe the slide to frame impact could jar the firing pin stop loose. Probably the slide to frame impact would cause the firing pin to go rearward before the stop would have time to drop.

 

[1911Tuner]

Stop

DBR said:

>Probably the slide to frame impact would cause the firing pin to go rearward before the stop would have time to drop.<
***************

Bingo. The only time that the firing pin would have the opportunity to move that far forward is after extraction and after the case has been moved away from the breechface...and after the firing pin stop has gotten past the hammer, and before the slide hits the impact surface. it's a narrow window, to be sure...but under just the right (wrong?) circumstances, it does happen.
IIRC, the last time I saw it happen (or was it the time before last?) was on a
new XSE Commander with less than 200 rounds through it.

For Hawkmoon:

Think about it, Hawk...If the case stayed glued tight to the breechface after bullet exit and extraction, extractor tension wouldn't be nearly as critical for positive ejection. Just enough tension to insure extraction usually causes erratic ejection or outright failure to eject, due to the case dropping too low to hit the ejector.

 

[saltydog452]

I can't resist..

'Once Upon A Time' there was this Officers Model From Hell. Recoil spring plug chasing a 230 grain bullet downrange, live ammo ejected on the ground, firing pin and spring trying to give me a surprise ear piercing, and this was from a replacement OM form Colt because the original was worse.

1911Tuner finally got it fixed (after a few other 'smiths' couldn't). That thread might be intestering reading. Its in the archives somewhere. I think it was about two years ago. Does that sound about right Tuner?

For what its worth, all is well with the little blaster now. Thanks Tuner.

salty.

 

[1911Tuner]

Couldn't Resist

Ahhhh, salty! 2 years sounds about right...give or take a month. Had to put that thing on life support.

For all who came in late, good man saltydog had been dealin' with this thing for about 10 years without success. Back to Colt for repair and ultimately replaced...then on to various smiths in an attempt to make it behave. (I've got a suspicion that Colt slapped the top onto a new frame, but can't prove it.) Finally, it went to one of the big dawgs who completely rebuilt it...and yet it stubbornly persisted in retaining its anti-social tendencies. Through all this, the man flatly refused to sell or trade it off to some unsuspecting soul...and thus his integrity got my attention. I was duly impressed, and after a few PMs, I was pretty sure that I could make it run. Having no FFL to receive the gun, I had him send the top-end assembly. To make a long story short, the blind hog found an acorn, and the little blaster has been held in high regard down in Tejas ever since. (That's Tex-Mex for "Texas.")

Thanks for the good words, salty. Means more than you know.