1911 Fire control problem - Help

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Zak Smith

Zak Smith

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Dec 24, 2002
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Fort Collins, CO, USA.
One of my 1911's has the following problem. The trigger gets into this "stuck" state where with the thumb safety OFF and the grip safety depressed, pull the trigger will not drop the hammer. I've noticed two cases:

1. I'm can't reproduce the problem reliably this way. If I pull the trigger with thegrip safety partially depressed, the hammer will not drop, but if I continue to yank on the trigger, it will get stuck so that even depressing the grip safety fully will not allow the hammer to fall. To get out of this state, I have to basically wiggle the trigger forward and back until it unlocks itself.

2. Grasp the grip safety fully with thumb safety ON, and pull the trigger hard. Sometimes the trigger will stay stuck such that disengaging the thumb safety, then depressing the grip safety and pulling the trigger will not drop the hammer.

Ideas?

This is a high-end IPSC limited gun; nobody except the factory has worked on it at all.

-z
 
If I'm understanding the problem right, it sounds like it could be due to the way the trigger bow and GS are meeting up.

Is this a double-stack 1911, or could you possibly experiment with the trigger from that DW you have? Have you stripped it down yet to see if anything looks obviously wrong?
 
Hammer No Fall

had to read this one through 3 or 4 times to gete a handle on it.

When you pull the trigger normally...The trigger moves normally, but the hammer won't fall...Right? If this is the case, it sounds like the disconnector
isn't resetting. May be due to the top of the paddle being unable to clear the bottoms of the sear legs when you release the trigger.

Do a quick test.

Pull the trigger and hold it rearward. Rack the slide briskly to cock the hammer. Slowly release the trigger and listen for a light click. If you don't hear it, the disconnector didn't reset, and pulling the trigger can't trip the sear. Double-check if...Remove the slide and cock the hammer. Ease the hammer forward and keep the trigger pulled rearward. Push down on the top of the disconnect with your thumbnail until it clicks. Release the trigger. The disconnect should pop back up. If it doesn't, it's not resetting.

In the second case...when you pull the trigger hard and have to wiggle it to
free it up...sounds like the bow is gettin' hung up under the grip safety lug.
Dunno...My head hurts. Might oughta go sleep it off and have another look at this one... :rolleyes: :D

Do that disconnector check and report back.

Standin' by...
 
Also, if the trigger fingerpiece has a screw in it, back the screw out. Or to make a quick check remove the magazine catch and then see if the trigger/hammer work normally.
 
Let's see.

Normally the trigger works. If the "stars" align just right, it gets into this jammed state in which is won't go further to the rear than it will if the grip safety is not depressed.

Doing the slide rack / disconnector test "works", ie, pulling & holding trigger to the rear, racking the slide, easing trigger forward, it resets as normal.

I've already backed out the overtravel screw.

Imagine the point where the grip safety is "just" engaging. If you pull the trigger right "on" this boundary between not engaging and engaging, the trigger will freeze and won't go past this point even when the grip safety IS depressed... until you pull and wiggle the trigger.

This is my double-stack 1911, so I'll need to figure out how to detail strip it to get further.

-z
 
Straaaaange Problem

Zak...Wthout havin' the gun here and takin' my best educated guess...
I'm gonna say that the top of the trigger stirrup is in a bind with the underside portion of the lug that blocks it. Probably due to a burr or rough spot from a previous inadvertent hang-up.

There's a slight angle under the point that leads to the straight edge on the bottom. It's possible that there's a burr just under the tip of that angle.
You can remove the grip safety and check it. If there's a rough edge or burr, chances that the trigger stirrup has one too. Dress the sharp edge with a stone. Don't remove more than necessary to clean it up, and don't take any off the point. Test it to see if it's better. If it is, go back in and check the trigger closely to see if it's buggered up too. You should be able to see it
without a complete detail-strip. If it's there, you'll have to remove the trigger to clean it up.

Check the trigger reset too...Squeeze the safety and pull the trigger. Keep the trigger pulled and release the safety. The safety should reset. If it doesn't, release the trigger. Both should reset. If they don't, you'll probably need to file/stone the flat edge on the underside of the safety lug to get a little clearance. Don't change the angle at the frontmore than enough to lightly round off the corner just ahead of the flat bottom edge.

Strange little bug ya got there. Never seen one that did that exact thing.

Standin' by...
 
Zak...Wthout havin' the gun here and takin' my best educated guess...
I'm gonna say that the top of the trigger stirrup is in a bind with the underside portion of the lug that blocks it.
Click to expand...

Hey Tuner! That's what I said last night. If we're right, I win...

If not, I have another possibility, but it's so wacky, I think I'll see if our binding problem is the correct answer.
 
Win?

Ahhh... COOL! What do we win? :D

That's what I get for not readin' all the responses before I shoot of my...my...
uh...my fingers! You had it covered and I didn't even know it. :cool:

We'll see...That's about all I can think of right off the bat...but I think we've got it, by Jove!
 
UPDATE

With regard to the trigger/grip safety reset. Pulling the trigger past the grip safety engagement point with the GS depressed; releasing the GS does not reset it, but releasing the trigger does both (I think - could have sworn it did, but gun's apart now).

I got the gun stripped, but I don't see any obvious burrs or impact marks on the GS lug or the back of the trigger.

[ link to LARGER image ]

[ link to LARGER image ]

[ link to LARGER image ]
 
I shot about 3000 rounds without this problem, until last week.

The only ongoing problem I've been having is light primer strikes about 1/200 rounds. That decreased in frequency when I went to WSR primers.

-z
 
Interesting. Let's get to my wacky idea, although I still think it's the interface between the GS and the trigger bow. Does this problem ever happen when there's no magazine in the pistol?

And now back to the GS: is it a proprietary kind, or could you toy around with a 1911-spec one in there?

(Hey, this thing doesn't have a firing-pin safety, does it?)
 
The rear of the trigger bow has a slight "U" cut in it. The flat "square" of the face of the lug engages about 2/3 on the RHS of the RH "U" vertical, if that makes any sense. So the foot's contact patch is disproportionately on its RHS (from the rear).
 
Hmmmm

Hey Zak!

That cutout in the top of the stirrup is a modification that was implemented many moons ago to prevent the top corner of the stirrup from contacting the disconnect. It wasn't a problem in all pistols, but in sufficient numbers that
the change was made to make the triggers more "Drop-In" reliable. Some need it...some don't. It doesn't hurt anything bein' there, and addresses any possible contact with the disconnect when the trigger is pulled, so it's a good idea.


From the looks of the lug on your grip safety, The underside is straight... without a slight angle on the bottom corner. Not sure why. That may be what's hangn' it up on the trigger. The grip safety should reset, regardless of the trigger's position...and the trigger should reset regardless of the grip safety's position.

If I'm lookin' at the lug right...and the bottom corner is square...try this:
LIGHTLY break the corner with a small file at a 30 degree angle, and stone the
burr smooth. The angle should remove length from the underside...not from the face. Try it and see if there's any improvement. If there is, but the problem still occurs...take another light cut and re-test.

If I'm NOT seein' it right, and the corner is broken...use a 6-inch mill file on the flat underside of the lug and reduce its height just a tiny bit. We're talkin'
.002 inch or so here...so don't get carried away. Don't let the side of the file
cut into the shoulder at the back of the lug. That's an overtravel stop for the trigger. File right up to it, but don't set it further back.

Stone all sharp edges when you're through.

Standin' by...
 
How Much?

Howdy Zak,

It depends...maybe just lightly breaking the corner will do the trick, and maybe it'll require more. Just break the corner and try it...Repeat. You should be able to tell whether you're doin' the right thing by the difference in the function. If it gets better, but still hangs up a little...take a little more.
One file stroke at a time, please. Easy to take it off...Not so easy to put it back. The trick is to get it out of the bind and still have it block the trigger
correctly.

Ain't hand-fittin' stuff FUN? :evil:
 
Why hasn't anyone suggested that he simply take the grips off of the gun while it is assembled and look at what is going on with the trigger stirrup and the lever on the grip safety. The end is not shiny at the angle where it clears the trigger so I don't know what is going on. Then pull the trigger out of it and see if there is some dirt in there in the trigger tracks or on the top or the bottom of the trigger itself.
 
Why ask Why

Cap'n ask:

Why hasn't anyone suggested that he simply take the grips off of the gun while it is assembled and look

Becauuuuuuuuuse...Him not bein' an experienced pistolsmith he probably wouldn't be able to tell much lookin' at it upside down, and becauuuuuuse
he can't see the top of the trigger stirrup nohow sooooo....he can't tell if there's a burr on it OR the safety lug, annnnnnnd from where I'm sittin' there ain't an angle on the bottom side nohow...annnnnnnd because he's gonna hafta take the safety off anyways to refit it.

How'm I doin'? :cool:
 
Unity!

Zak said:

I don't think that will work on an SV/STI frame because the grip is unified.
_______________

You can still turn the gun upside down and peek in there with a flashlight...but it won't tell ya much except that the trigger is gettin' past the lug. Ya already know dat, 'cause the gun will go bang. Ya gotta look close
to see just a nub slip past the trigger. Might be enough to see where it's hangin'. You'll still hafta refit it though...
 
Ok.

I got the whole thing stripped, and took a look at the parts.

Nothing was obviously wrong, I didn't see any burrs. I cleaned everything, and ran a "fine" Spyderco stone over the top of the trigger bow where it contacts the lug, and I gave the bottom corner of the lug some strokes.

Got back together and everything still works (!!!). I haven't been able to reproduce the original problem yet, but let's give it a few days of dryfire practice...

-z
 
Now that I know what I'm looking at, I could have done it. The best way to diagnose it would have been to get it stuck, then remove the slide, get out the flashlight and see what's jammed up. I'll do so if it jams again.
 
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