1911 frame welding?

[Oktagon]

I have been collecting WW1 wintage Colt M1911s for some time now.
I have had the prestine multi $K Navy models as well as refiished shooters and some muts. Recently I have aquired a "shooter" which I suspect had its frame welded at some point. when I look inside the frame, exactly where the bartel would hit it when the slide moves to the rear I can see something that looks like polished welding seam to me. I have never seen rewelded 1911 frames, but is this where it usually failes and gets rewelded? What does the frame damage look like when the pistol is fired for long time with weak recoil spring? Can anyone provide some links or pictures?

Thank you!

 

[Jim K]

That sounds more like peening from the barrel than a crack. Cracks in the 1911 frame usually appear at one of two places. The first is the thin web above the square slide stop hole, the other is at the front of the round slide stop pin hole. Cracking at the point you describe would be unusual, though not impossible.

A spring that would not resist recoil enough to allow the frame to crack would probably not feed rounds too well, either, so I doubt that the spring in itself would cause the problem. There are several ways to test for cracks in steel. There is a dye test, and there is also the old reliable magnafluxing. If you are anywhere near even a medium size city, you can probably find a local welding shop which can run both tests at a modest cost. Call around first and make sure they know the object is a gun frame, so there are no embarassing situations when you take it in. Gunsmiths are not usually set up to do this kind of testing.

Jim

 

[Dean Taylor]

The slides on the old ones with high milage can also crack. When welded by a welding artist and remachined / finished they can be hard to spot. They also can tend to crack again in high use situations.

Dean
[email protected]
410-952-7848

 

[Oktagon]

Here are the pictures of the frame in question.
The subject of my concern is the that defect which looks like a weld to me.
DHas anyone seen this in the past?

 

[Jim Watson]

It looks like it might be an inserted feed ramp repair. If Bubba ground out the frame ramp too deep so as to "blend" the frame and barrel ramps as was commonly recommended in the 60s DIY articles on how to butcher your Army surplus .45, maybe a real gunsmith put in a piece to build the ramp back to normal. EGW does this sort of work these days.

 

[Oktagon]

I thought about this possibility, but the feed ramp looks prety standard. If it was "blended" and then welded up and machined, it was a very nice job.
I have examined the frame under 30x magnification (machinist's microscope) and did not see any signs or welding, machining or any metal work except for that horizontal seam. The interesting thing is, if someone did some work woth that frame, and went through all the trouble of concealing it in the most difficult to reach places, why would they leave the seam in the most obvious place?
At the same time I have never seen this sort of mark on any 1911 frames which have passed through my hands. I do not believe there is any possibility of this mark being original to the frame manufacturing (by the way, this is Colt 1947 made commercial A1 frame).

 

[BluesBear]

Well by golly it sure does look like something has been filled or welded.

But it's on the part of the frame next to the recoil plug not the feedramp side.

It looks like a cube the same width as the plug cut was removed and then replaced?


Sure makes you go Hmmmmmmm.

 

[Bill Z]

It appears to be a feedramp silver soldered in place. Jim hit it right on the head. It's not a common thing, but not really an unusual repair for a butchered job. You will find this done on many alloy frames where a steel feedramp is inserted to add longevity to the reciever.You will find those are usually pinned in. If it feeds and shoots okay enjoy your new aquisition.

 

[Oktagon]

Yes, but the repair or whatever this hapens to be is not on the side of feed ramp. The feed ramp looks fine.

In any case, I think I have solved the mistery.

You see, the firs thing I did to this pistol was to replace the barrel, since the original one had pretty badly worn barrel link, and the kug attachment.
I just took the original barrel and placed it in the frame without installing the slide. The lip of the chamber matches exactly with this "weld mark" which is actually nit a weld mark, but an impression from the chamber lip hitting the frame evry time due to excessive vertical travel caused by worn barrel link. When I look at the bottom of the chamber, I see the mirror image of this "weld", which appears to be ridge-like.
So the frame of the gun has not been tampered with.
Very interesting!

 

[Jim K]

I agree. I could be wrong, but it certainly does look like the bottom of the barrel has been hitting the frame. In a properly set up pistol, the rear of the barrel foot will hit the vertical part of the frame but there will be a small gap between the bottom of the barrel and the top of the frame. The reason is that if the barrel hits, in the extreme case the bottom of the barrel can be broken out by striking the frame at that point.

That being said, there still is a problem of some kind. The frame web looks too long, front to rear. It could be that the barrel is in spec and the frame is not. The bottom rear end of the barrel (bottom rear of the chamber) should come even with the top front of the frame feed ramp when the barrel is down. It looks like there would be a portion of horizontal frame between the mag well and the end of the barrel, definitely not the way it should be.

Who made the frame? Some after market frames are made oversize at critical points so the pistolsmith can fit them to customer demands in regard to feed ramps, etc. Also, as others have noted, smiths build up or restore feed ramps; if not done properly, what I see could result. I think you should check some books (Kuhnhausen's are good) and/or consult a competent pistolsmith.

Jim

 

[Dave Sample]

Just spent a few hours in the shop turning a Horse into an Eagle. I had the frame welded up because some expert had ruined it. It was a '70 series Colt 1911 that was sold because there was no way it could feed with the barrel throat hanging over the feed ramp. It is going to be a nice shooter when I get done with it. Still had the collet bushing in it as it was not shot much.

 

[Oktagon]

The frame is Colt's 1948 commercial. The frame is in spec. I checked it with mictometter and averything is fine. Based on the fact that there is very little wear anywhere on the frame, it appears that the barrel which came with the gun was not original to it. Its not a Colt barel, but unmarked aftermarket one.
When I fitted Barsto barrel to this frame, it wits as it should. I pretty sure that the mark on the frame was caused by the bottom of the barel and the primary cause of this was worn link which allowed too much exsessive movement. I will post more pictures which will explain things better.