1911 half cock problem; assistance please.

[1911Tuner]

Clearly, you need to correct Colt.

Clearly, you need to set one in a captive half-cock notch and pull the trigger.

On page 16 of the Series 70 owners manual it warns "the half cock notch is not intended to be engaged by hand." then it has a caution warning about the very thing I've been talking about how hazardous the lip of the notch perched on the sear can be.

Yes, I've seen it, and standing it on the edge is possible. I've done it. It took some manipulating, but it can be done. That doesn't have anything to do with the fact that it locks up the trigger/fire control group if correctly engaged.

Colt...along with all other firearms manufacturers...has to warn about such things because of the suit-happy lawyers. The owners manual also used to tell us not to load the gun until we were ready to shoot it.

 

[AC1911]

I forgot to mention they are MIM parts if it makes a difference.

 

[1911Tuner]

MIM and investment cast is pretty much a foregone conclusion these days. Other than the high-end semi-customs like Wilson or Baer, Colt is the only current manufacturer that I know of that still uses blanked, finish-machined barstock hammers.

 

[Greg528iT]

All this being said.. The OP needs to have the hammer and sear inspected. and please take a picture, as we'd all like to see. Especially if it cracked the half cock capture edge. That had to be ONE heck of a whack.

My 3, Springfields have capturing half cock notches. 2 have aftermarket hammers, but they are still of the capture variety. I too can balance a coin on edge. I think that's easier than setting the sear on the peak of capture notch.

If you have a 1/4 cock shelf and want the additional safety of the full capture notch, it's just a gun smith away. A qualified gun smith should be able to put one in, faster than reading all these replies.

 

[1911Tuner]

All this being said.. The OP needs to have the hammer and sear inspected.

Yup.

I too can balance a coin on edge. I think that's easier than setting the sear on the peak of capture notch.

I can manage it once or twice in 10 tries.

Lemme ask a simple question that has a logical answer.

Back in the day when hammers were machined...that captive notch was a fairly complicated cut to make. It required tooling and setup and it tied up a machine and man-hours. Why go to all that trouble for a hammer arresting feature when a flat shelf would have served the same purpose...if that's all it was? A flat shelf is faster and cheaper to machine. Fast and cheap increases the bottom line and helps to get more pistols out the door.

Why go to the trouble and the expense unless it has a dual purpose?

 

[Greg528iT]

It doesn't have to be MIM to be weak and fracture. Here is a picture of the sear from a 1941 P38, Bring back.


granted the P38 was the budget 9mm of the time, but you can get bad spots anywhere.
Taken with a autofocus snap and shoot digital.

 

[GLOOB]

If you have a 1/4 cock shelf and want the additional safety of the full capture notch

? I thought this thread just got done showing why the new improved 1/4 cock shelf is better than a captive halfcock.

If you want to carry a chambered gun in condition 2, lower to the 1/4 cock notch. Then carefully lower the hammer all the way down. This is obviously more dropsafe than the captive halfcock notch. Safer for you, safer for your hammer/sear/hammer pin if you drop the gun.

 

[1911Tuner]

Greg. That looks like a casting.

 

[1911Tuner]

If you want to carry a chambered gun in condition 2, lower to the 1/4 cock notch. Then carefully lower the hammer all the way down. This is obviously safer than the captive halfcock notch.

Why is that safer?

I thought this thread just got done showing why the new improved 1/4 cock shelf is better than a captive halfcock.

How is it better...exactly?

 

[Greg528iT]

yes, very much looks like a casting. also had some machine work on it.. I put MIM above 1941 casting tech any day. I don't know why the German's cast such an integral part? Same reason we have MIM parts? OH YEAH!!!!!

 

[GLOOB]

How is it better...exactly?

Shall we review?

Yes, I've seen it, and standing it on the edge is possible. I've done it. It took some manipulating, but it can be done.

If it can be done, it's obviously not a completely safe design.

Add the fact that the notch can break. I don't care what you've seen or done, it can happen. An engineer can tell you for fact that the notch is strong enough to catch a hammer that slipped. He cannot tell you that it is strong enough to prevent a dropfire, unless you specify the maximum height, starting velocity, and rotational velocity of the gun when dropped. In the real world, any of these maximums can be exceeded. This is the same situation as a 1911 with no firing pin block. You can put a titanium firing pin and overpowered firing pin spring in it and call it dropsafe. But the fact is, that it will still fire if dropped from a sufficient height. This has been proven in testing to be around 10 feet. (At least in this scenario, the gun would fire into the ground and unlikely to hurt anyone; but you're still responsible for an unintended discharge which could get you evicted and/or facing legal charges, depending where it happened.)

Furthermore, even if you relegate it to catching a slipped hammer and avoid using it as a safety, consider the condition where you've carefully lowered the hammer all the way down on a gun that has only a halfcock notch:

If a round could fire from the original halfcock, then guess what could happen if your thumb slipped just before the original halfcock was engaged?

Why do you think Colt changed from the old to the newer 1/4 half cock? They obviously felt it was an improvement, and there are many logical reasons why it IS an improvement. The most obvious is that it will catch a hammer that slips from a greater range of positions. Not quite so obviously, it allows a much safer manual of arms for completely lowering the hammer on a loaded round, should the user feel the desire to do so. It's undeniably superior, as long as you understand that the gun should never be left on this notch. It's only there to catch the hammer if it should slip, whether through thumb-cocking or an overzealous trigger job that lets go when the gun is manually racked.

 

[1911Tuner]

If it can be done, it's obviously not a completely safe design.

Is gun. Gun not safe.

Add the fact that the notch can break. I don't care what you've seen or done, it can happen.

Go get an old steel hammer...put it on half-cock...and whack it with a hammer. The geometry is wrong to shear the lip. You might crush the sear, but the lip will remain intact. If, on the other hand, the lip was damaged previously by a sear impacting it on the way down, it can crack, but it rarely shears completely off and it will still arrest the hammer. The lip only captures the sear.

Why do you think Colt changed from the old to the newer 1/4 half cock?

Because by the time the Series 80 system rolled around, nearly everybody had gone to cocked and locked carry. Nobody used the half-cock any more...and because a flat shelf is faster, easier, simpler, and cheaper to machine...and because it functions just fine as a hammer arrest...it was changed. Not because it was "better" but because it was cheaper.

Now I'll ask another question...again.

Who loads a gun, places it on-safe, and starts pulling the trigger? Why would anybody do that?

Think about it, now.

 

[David E]

Clearly, you need to set one in a captive half-cock notch and pull the trigger.

its frustrating engaging you, as we agree on what the OP was asking about, but once again you pursue and "correct" something that I never stated. if nothing is broken, 1/2 cock will withstand quite a bit of force, as i stated previously. But the OP's question was "should it fall?" It depends if the hammer has a 1/2 or 1/4 cock notch/shelf.

Yes, standing it on the edge is possible. I've done it. It took some manipulating, but it can be done.

Glad you finally discovered it's possible. I never said it was probable.

The lip of the notch can rest on the edge of the sear. This bypasses the captive 1/2 cock notch. It may not require a pull of the trigger to release the hammer. Lawyers didn't sit around playing, "hey, I wonder if this could happen..." then write it into Page 16 of the manual just in case it ever might. It happened to someone, bringing the flaw to their attention.

Very much like Sig making their early guns decock only, where the hammer was safely arrested when lowered by the decocking lever.....except that some people (maybe 1911 folks that subscribed to your manual hammer lowering) bypassed the mechanism that held the hammer safely at rest when they lowered it manually. The rebounding hammer LOOKED safe, but a blow on the hammer would fire the chambered round. Sig fixed it....after the flaw was discovered.

Design is one thing, actual practice is often quite another.

It sounds like you champion carrying a chamber loaded 1911 on 1/2 cock.....

 

[1911Tuner]

Glad you finally discovered it's possible.

Oh, I figured that out years ago with a Model 94.

Here's a chance to learn somethin', David.

Set one on the edge. Drop the pistol from shoulder height onto a carpeted floor...to keep from damaging the gun.

The hammer will bounce, and the sear will reset and fall into the notch, just as it was designed to do. See...there just ain't much that I haven't done to a 1911 in my quest to figure out exactly how it works.

So, even if you do inadvertently stand one on the edge, it won't jar off, and you still have to pull the trigger to make the hammer fall...which brings us back to the question:

Why would anybody place a loaded gun on-safe and then pull the trigger?

 

[David E]

It depends which side of the "edge" the sear is on and/or where and/or what the gun hits. No trigger pull required.

Things aren't as absolute in real life as you portray.

 

[1911Tuner]

Well...there's one way to find out.

 

[David E]

Seems to me the lawsuits already "found that out."

 

[Greg528iT]

Why would anybody place a loaded gun on-safe and then pull the trigger?

They SHOULDN'T

 

[David E]

Why would anybody place a loaded gun on-safe and then pull the trigger?

That's the wrong question.

The real question is: "why would anyone chamber load a 1911, then lower the hammer to 1/2 cock when page 16 of the owners manual specifically states NOT to manually lower the hammer and that the sear engaged in the 1/2 cock notch is NOT a safe carry condition?"

Think about it.

 

[KC&97TA]

The Springfield 1911 (Legend Series) does not have a half-cocked position. I tried finding it both by thumbing the hammer and by a controlled release. I have no idea whether this is by design or a defect.

design... I've noticed allot of match/custom guns don't have a 'notch'

Why would anybody place a loaded gun on-safe and then pull the trigger?

That's the wrong question.

The real question is: "why would anyone chamber load a 1911, then lower the hammer to 1/2 cock when page 16 of the owners manual specifically states NOT to manually lower the hammer and that the sear engaged in the 1/2 cock notch is NOT a safe carry condition?"

Think about it.

David, read... owners manual? What? Man no read manual. Stop those blistery words, that you do dare speak?

 

[GLOOB]

Why would anybody place a loaded gun on-safe and then pull the trigger?

Just wow.

Since all you have to do is not pull the trigger, why put it on-safe to begin with? Why even have a manual safety (or a "safe position")?

This is a good argument for you to throw your 1911 in the ocean and buy a Glock.

Nobody used the half-cock any more...and because a flat shelf is faster, easier, simpler, and cheaper to machine...and because it functions just fine as a hammer arrest...it was changed. Not because it was "better" but because it was cheaper.

Absolute BS. Cheaper to manufacture???? With CNC mills, you think this is significantly cheaper to manufacture? And what say you, then, of the hammers that have BOTH the quarter cock and half cock notches on them? Why in the world would they make such a hammer if the only benefit of the 1/4 cock notch is that it's CHEAPER? Mind = blown at how stupid everyone in the world must seem to you, Tuner.

 

[1911Tuner]

And what say you, then, of the hammers that have BOTH the quarter cock and half cock notches on them?

I don't know. You'll have to ask them. Maybe it's backup/fail-safe because they don't trust their cast or MIM hammers. You're aware that they don't machine those...right?

Gloob...I was speaking of the original design. "Why would they go to the trouble to machine that notch if all it was meant to be was a hammer arrest."

Personally, I won't carry one with a cast or MIM hammer in Condition One. I've seen the hammer hooks roll off a Springfield MIM hammer with one light boosting, so that may have something to do with their reasons for two.

Look...I'm not trying to tell anybody to use the half cock as a way to carry the gun...captive or shelf-type. I'm telling you what it is...how it functions...and what it will and won't do. Nothing more and nothing less. Jim and Bob and Joe will have to decide for themselves how to carry the piece.

I never advise anybody on how they should carry a 1911. Ever. When I'm asked, I outline their options and leave that up to them. I also show them the correct way to lower the hammer, along with all due caveats involved with it. Beyond that...I offer no advice.

But, the captive half-cock is a safety. Says so right there in the original patents. I guess if the ghost of John Browning were to appear and confirm it, there are several who would argue with him, too.

Now, about that drop-test. Anybody care to try it? I've demonstrated it about 2 dozen times over the years. The sear falls into the captive notch...every time.

Because...

The sear spring keeps the sear under constant tension. The instant that the hammer bounces a little, and removes force on the sear...it resets and moves back into the hammer.

 

[David E]

I'm telling you what it is...how it functions...

Sounds like a great idea..... For another thread... The OP's gun dropped onto a hard tile floor and hit the hammer. He thought the gun was on 1/2 cock and now the hammer will fall if the trigger is pulled. Is it broken? That may depends on if he has a captive 1/2 cock notch where the hammer should not fall, or the 1/4 cock safety stop where it should.

But, the captive half-cock is a safety. Says so right there in the original patents.

No one disagreed with that. I did say that there is "design" and then there is actual practice.

Now, about that drop-test. Anybody care to try it? I've demonstrated it about 2 dozen times over the years. The sear falls into the captive notch...every time.

1000's of people using 1000's of 1911's who discovered the design flaw(s) and apparently sued Colt enough to mandate a warning that the "1/2 cock notch is not a safe way to carry it" on page 16 of the owners manual.

But since you dropped one 24 times and it worked, that trumps all that?

I think not.

 

[1911Tuner]

1000's of people using 1000's of 1911's who discovered the design flaw(s) and apparently sued Colt enough to mandate a warning that the "1/2 cock notch is not a safe way to carry it" on page 16 of the owners manual.

And...you've got documentation of all these lawsuits, I suppose?

At one time, Colt's owner's manual advised us not to load the gun until we were ready to shoot it, and not to carry or transport a loaded gun to and from the range. Are we to blindly accept that as well?

Those warnings are a manufacturer's way of placing the responsibility on the owner, where it belongs rather than leave an opening for a lawsuit. That's ultimately why Ruger started using that big, ugly rollmark on their guns...so that some idiot couldn't say that they didn't actually tell him to read the manual.

Again, I haven't advised anyone to use the half-cock or any other mode of carry. Only what the options are.

But since you dropped one 24 times and it worked, that trumps all that?

Let's drop the snark, shall we? You don't snark me and I won't respond in kind. That way, we can maintain a little civility.

... The OP's gun dropped onto a hard tile floor and hit the hammer. He thought the gun was on 1/2 cock and now the hammer will fall if the trigger is pulled.

Yep, and we still haven't determined exactly which type of half/quarter-cock his gun has or whether anything is actually broken. We're still waiting on the report. He's been advised to open it up and have a look, or take it to somebody who can. Another bit of snark was responsible for starting the off-topic direction...and it wasn't me that threw down the glove.

 

[45_auto]

Now I'll ask another question...again.

Who loads a gun, places it on-safe, and starts pulling the trigger? Why would anybody do that?

Because JMB wanted them to in the original patent? Because they're trying to re-enact their great grandad's last cavalry charge? Who knows, but they will.

You have to realize that the 1911 was designed to be used as a fighting weapon from a horse. The 1911 was specifically designed to be able to be able to lower the hammer using one hand (SAA took two hands). That's why the hammer releases the grip safety when you pull it further back than full cock. You pull the hammer back with the thumb of your hand, then pull the trigger with the trigger finger of the same hand and carefully lower the hammer. All of this is described in the patent.

It also had a magazine safety in the original patent, apparently JMB was afraid you weren't smart enough to check the chamber.