1911 & Newbie Questions

[DelayedReaction]

Greetings everyone. I'm new to the world of shooting, but have lurked around this board for several weeks now. I'm interested in starting to shoot, and although I have no intention of purchasing a pistol right away (I'm forcing myself to demonstrate a sincere dedication to the sport first) I've been looking at models I would enjoy trying out.

One that has extensively caught my attention is the 1911. I'm really interested in this firearm, and was wondering if you guys would be willing to answer a few questions...

A) Would you recommend the 1911 as a first firearm? Why or why not?

B) I'm a pretty big guy (6'9" and about 300 lbs), and my hands are also pretty massive. Would a 1911 be of sufficient size that I could comfortably fire it? I've heard that the grip is somewhat skinny.

C) The SA 1911's seem generally well received, particularly the MilSpec and GI models. Are there any concerns about this gun (comfort when firing, part issues) that a new shooter should be aware of?

D) What is your opinion of the Hogue wraparound grips? I was told they were comfortable, and also provided additional bulk that would be useful for large individuals such as myself.

E) What modifications could be done to the weapon to make it more comfortable to fire? I've heard a lot about beavertails and getting a longer trigger. Would these modifications be something a technically minded individual with machining experience would be able to perform on their own?

F) I've heard a lot about "MIM" parts and the problems associated with them. What exactly is MIM?

G) What is the functional difference between stainless and parkerized frames? From an aesthetic standpoint I happen to like the stainless look, but I wasn't sure if there was anything different in terms of functionality.

H) What are generally considered essential changes to a SA 1911? I've heard a lot about installing a new extractor, for example.

I) Is there any advice you think a new shooter should know? Any advice or suggestions would be sincerely appreciated.

Sorry if I ask too many questions; I'm very enthusiastic about shooting and I would like to know as much as possible. Thanks in advance.

 

[Smoke]

A) 1911 makes a very good first firearm. Lots of history. Easy to maintain. Good accuracy. Simple controls.

B) IF the grips are too skinny feeleing (I'm 6'5" - 220) look at a Hogue Grip or the Double stack guns like Para Ordnance. I prefer a double stack with a Hogue grip. Fits my hands perfectly, but I have no problem with single stack guns either. Just avoid the officers sized grips.

C) For the answer to this question read Tuner's reports on this gun.

D) See B. above.

E) many 1911's come with extended beavertails. The Milspec and GI guns won't. I don't notice a lot of difference.

F) MIM is Metal Injection moulding (or something like that), basically a manufacturing process that can leave weakness in the metal. Sometimes a problem, sometimes not.

G) Functionally...no difference.

H. I've had extractor problems wiht my Springfield and it is widely reported. I also know of guns that have run thousands of rounds right out of the box. If you get one...shoot it and adress concerns when problems appear.

I.) Buy your gun. Spend a like amount on ammo. Then look at repairs/mods on an as-needed basis.

All of the opinions above ar my own. Others may differ.

Smoke

HTH

 

[1911Tuner]

1911

Howdy and welcome in!

Smoke gave some good points and advice. If you're geared more toward traditional grip panels, Uncle Mike's makes a nice set of steel reinforced
rubber panels that are thicker than standard quarter-inch grips for about 20 bucks. Any color you want as long as it's black.

You can also install a long trigger if your choice comes with a short one...which some do. There are mainspring housings to tailor the fit to your hand. Arched...Flat...or Wedged housings that split the difference.

The drawback with the 1911 is exactly the same as one of its advantages.
The short, relatively light single-action trigger makes it easy to shoot,
but is also much less forgiving of careless handling than double-action autopistols. I'd suggest that until you're completely familiar with the
handling charactistics of a single-action auto, that you adopt an anal retentive nature over keeping your finger out of the trigger guard until
you're actually ready to fire the pistol, or lowering the hammer on an
EMPTY chamber after double and triple-checking to see that it's empty.

I also advise strongly against lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber
at least until you've practiced the move dry about 500 times...and even
then, have a 2-foot thick stack of newspapers to point the gun at when doing it. The 1911 is correctly carried in one of two ways; Condition One:
Cocked and locked on a loaded chamber...and Condition Three: Hammer
down on an empty chamber with a loaded magazine. Condition Two:
Hammer down on a hot chamber isn't an option, at least for me.

Since you're new to the arena, remember three things, if you remember nothing else.

That pistol isn't a toy and it's NOT your friend. It's as dangerous as a rattlesnake, and should be regarded as hostile whenever you or anybody else picks it up.

Never take anybody's word that the gun is unloaded. Not mine...not your
brother's...not your best friend's...and I won't take your word for it.

Never trust a mechanical safety device. They can fail, just like anything else.
The safety is you. The safety "catch" is a backup system for when you have a brainfart. The 1911 has three. One is manual and the others are automatic. Each one backs up the others...but you are the real safety.


Bottom line: It's NOT safe. It's a GUN!

Luck to ya! Hope your stay is a long and happy one. There are dozens of
knowledgeable members here who are only too happy to answer your questions and help ya along the way.

Tuner

 

[phorvick]

You indicated that you did not yet own a handgun, and were requesting comments on the 1911 et al variations as a first purchase.

First, the venerable 1911 has been a mainstay for, well, almost a hundred years. It is about as finely tried and true as can be. That being said, the downside is that it a model that is, at its core, a nearly 100 year old design (not that this is bad necessarily as in the world of firearms if it works, why change it etc.).

Although not universally agreed, a 1911 is more prone to out-of-the-box issues than some other choices; further, and again not universally agreed, a 1911 model is often tweaked a bit to perform better and more reliably.

Although not "hard" to field strip and clean, it is more cumbersome than many other newer models.

I happen to think that everyone should, at some time, own a 1911. Just for the history and beauty (Most people consider the 1911 style to be a "pretty" gun, wood inlay, stainless steel etc.), it belongs in all home inventories.

That being said, the obvious question to ask you is .. "What do you want to do with the gun?

.45 ammunition is, unless you reload, a tad pricey (versus 9mm for example). A full size 9mm from Glock (the G17 or G34), Beretta 92 series or Springfield would be much less costly to learn to shoot..about 1/2 the cost of .45 rounds. Also, the Glock, Springfield and Beretta have a reputation (again not 100% would agree) to be easier to learn to shoot and far easier to clean/maintain.

Make the decision on what you want to do with the gun, then try some variety...spice up the life...for sure try 1911 models, but do also consider branching out.

 

[Berg01]

I recommend that a first time shooter first take the NRA Basic Handgun Safety Course; this is also called the Home Firearms Safety Course, or the First Steps Firearms Course. Most of the students will shoot .38 spl revolvers or 9mm pistols, rather than a 45 cal. 1911. Since these courses tend to be conducted at rental ranges, go ahead and rent a good revolver (like a Smith & Wesson 686) or a 9mm pistol (like a Glock 17).

Let the instructor observe how you shoot, and then ask for a recommendation. He might tell you to get out to a rental range to try out several types of firearms before deciding on one type of gun.

 

[DelayedReaction]

Wow, this is a really great board.

This would be exclusively for target shooting, and as a student on a college budget cost may become an issue. What would be some ideal low-cost alternatives to start with before I used a 1911?

 

[1911Tuner]

Low-Cost

'Twas asked:

What would be some ideal low-cost alternatives to start with before I used a 1911.

At this point, I'd point you directly at the Springfield GI Mil-Spec. I haven't
been impressed with a new entry in the 1911 clone field in several years,
but this one got my attention. See my Torture-Test thread.

The Colt 0991 Series 80 Government Model is also a good choice for
another 150 bucks or so...

Luck to ya, lad! Carry on!

Tuner

 

[Werewolf]

What would be some ideal low-cost alternatives to start with before I used a 1911?

If money is truly an issue but you want an accurate, quality pistol to learn on I would recommend highly the CZ 75B chambered in 9mm. You should be able to pick up a brand new one for $400 or so. Recoil is practicaly a non-issue (I barely notice it and my wife - who's pistol it is - says the recoil is not a problem either) and for a new shooter it is best to start with a gun with as little recoil as possible (many recommend a .22).

By beginning with a lighter recoil weapon you can concentrate on shooting fundamentals like grip, trigger, sights, breath control etc and not have to worry about the BANG! .

And when you finally do decide to get that 1911 you'll still have that mighty fine CZ to play with.

 

[BHPshooter]

You know, we have so many of these "new to 1911" threads, why doesn't somebody in the know put together a webpage with a FAQ? I'm not ripping on anyone who asks -- I have many of the same questions about 1911s, it just gets a little tiring to see the same questions over and over.

Or perhaps there is one that I've not seen before?

Wes

 

[Tamara]

Standard piece of advice I give:

When someone's weighing a "basic" 1911 versus a "loaded" gun, my first question is: "Do you think you will want to modify the piece?" Then: "Will the modifications be something like this next model up the line?" Then: "If you're just gonna throw a buncha stuff out and replace it, maybe this MilSpec is the gun for you. Probably the stainless model, though, as that way you won't need to refinish the gun after every mod. If you like the features on the Loaded, though, it'll cost you much, much more to add them to the MilSpec than to just buy the loaded gun with those features already on it."

 

[Dave Sample]

Go for it! Good posts, Tuner! Kudos to Tamara, too. You have left me speechless!

 

[Black Majik]

IMO the 1911 is a great first gun. The use of a manual safety (thumb safety) is a great feature. So many guns these days have internal safeties that this alone IMO gives the 1911 model an advantage.

My first gun was a 1911, a Colt Government Series 80. I would also recommend a .22 conversion kit to help battle flinching, a problem with many new shooters. The anticipation of the recoil causes the shooter to "jerk" the gun while pulling the trigger.

1911's do have a tendency to need some work out of the box, but the majority still will shoot great out of the box. If you do decide to get a 1911, dont let the reliability factor let you down if you stay within the major companies (Colt, Kimber, Springfield etc...)

Also, if you do pick up a 1911, be sure to post pics.

 

[1911Tuner]

Uh-Oh

Dave said:

You have left me speechless!




Call the paramedics!!! The Cap'n must be chokin' on a chicken bone!




Toooner Fee-ush <-----Southern drawl

 

[TheEgg]

You can also go here www.m1911.org for a great deal of background information for the 1911. Then you can join up over at www.1911forum.com and ask lots of questions there. They have a dedicated SA section with people with lots of experience with these guns.

I often recommend that people get a .22 handgun as their first, especially for people on a budget. However, lots of folks resist this, as they have their heart set on a real honest-to-gosh louden-boomer. If you do decide to get the 1911, look closely at getting a .22 coversion kit for it. You can then shoot the thing a lot for little money, learning how to handle the weapon and learning the basics without the cost of .45 ACP ammunition.

As for the SAs, sorry no personal experience with them other than fondling them at the gun mongers. But the mil-spec looks like a good project gun -- but as a first time user you might want to look for something that has the basics that you think you might want, such as a beavertail, already installed. Such features are usually cheaper from the factory.

However, be warned -- betcha can't buy just one!

 

[jercamp45]

Great Posts All!!

My first real handgun was a Government model too! Nearly 30 years later, after trying all the major makes and models, various sizes of the 1911 are the only pistol I currently own.
For target/general range use, the 5 inch Government is the way to go!
I second the quality of the Colt 1991A1 series.
I second the later acquisition of a .22 conversion unit for cheap practise.
And I second Tamara's suggestion to look for one with a few more bells and whistles. Sights, in particular as the Mil-Spec style have little sights that are hard to line up fast and they are fairly expensive add on's. The entended thumb safety and beavertails are a matter if taste(I like them and have them on my meager five gun collection...4 Colts and a Para).
I further second taking the basic handgun class to gain training and experience with different types of handguns, stances, etc.
You have alot of great info here!
Jercamp45

 

[DelayedReaction]

This is really encouraging. I had no idea how supportive this forum was.

The Marvel .22 conversion kit seems like a good buy. I'm definitely going to be taking a class (MD law requires one to purchase a handgun, and I'd rather take something extensive), so no worries there.

I think I would like the challenge of taking a basic gun and steadily improving it as I got better. Not only does it appeal to me as an engineer, but it also ensures that every change to the gun is something I can appreciate and approve of.

 

[Treylis]

I'd definitely recommend a 1911 as a first gun... plus, I'm 6'6" and 200 with big hands, and the ergonomics just suit me. I have a set of slim grip panels on mine and I like that, but depending on how much you want the gun to fill your hand, there's plenty of other stuff out there.

Personally, I feel much more comfortable with a gun that has a manual safety--particularly a frame-mounted one--and so the 1911 is good there, too.

Insofar as you liking stainless, you'll find that it's a bit easier to keep clean--I have a Springfield PX9152L, which is the "black stainless"-and-parkerized model. I've been very happy with it.

Plus, you can dry-fire 1911s all you want in handling practice--they don't have a frangible firing pin or other problems that some guns possess.

 

[GoRon]

I also see that Kimber offers a 22 conversion now. My first pistol was my Springfield TRP. Now having shot different pistols and revo's I have no regrets. The Springer milspecs are getting good reviews almost without exception. My gun had a flat mainspring housing and I dropped a Wilson wedge in it due to my large hands. That would be the same as an arched mainspring housing. I would rent one and shoot it, no doubt you will become a believer.

 

[azrael]

Nothing I can add here except for...Tuner has a southern accent?? SAY IT ISNT SOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Welcome to the board..

 

[1911Tuner]

Say it ain't so!

azrael said:

Nothing I can add here except for...Tuner has a southern accent??

Well...hayull yayuh! What didja think Ah sounded like?

Cheers...ya'll!

Tuner

 

[DelayedReaction]

Good news: My friend has a 1911 that he's going to let me fire when we head out to the range this Saturday. I'm pretty sure it's a SA, so that'll give me a perfect idea of what I'm going to get.

In addition I signed for a NRA-approved pistol course this Sunday. I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Serpico]

All good advice here....but you did mention that you might be on a budget...so remember, you can get twice as many 9mms for the same price of 45s....and since it is for target shooting and we ain't getting into that old 9 vs 45 knockdown baloney, a 9 should be fine....I love my 45 milspec, but it wasn't my first gun, that was a smith and wesson model 19 revolver....great, simple and fun.....if you aren't into revolvers, check out a few double action 9s also....they make good first guns too....and if you are sold on the single action 1911 design, take a look at a browning High Power (same design minus the grip safety)....the second gun I ever bought and still my favorite.....

 

[Berg01]

What would be some ideal low-cost alternatives to start with before I used a 1911?

A good alternative is a 4" or 6" Smith & Wesson Model 686 revolver, preferably an older one. A good alternative semi auto would be the other J.M. Browning handgun masterpiece, the 9mm Browning High Power (or BHP). Again, preferably an older one. Once you get the hang of the BHP, then its a natural progression to a 1911 in .45 ACP.

In addition I signed for a NRA-approved pistol course this Sunday. I'm looking forward to it.

A big Atta-guy There!

 

[DelayedReaction]

I've been looking around at the various HiPower offerings, and I must admit I'm tempted. Who makes the better HiPowers, and how much do they cost?

 

[tetchaje1]

The best Hi-Powers are the Browning models that are made in Belgium on FN machinery. All of the newer ones are made in Belgium and assembled in Portugal, but there seems to be a concensus that these guns are every bit as good as their older all-Belgian progenitors. The only downside is the magazine disconnect safety on the newer models (easily removed, though... ).

If you want a newer FN, but you don't want to drop the $$$$ to get a bona-fide SA Hi-Power, CDNN and a lot of gunstores are blowing out the DA/SA and DAO FN Hi-Powers for around $300. Not bad at all for a reliable, accurate gun.

Here are the differences between the SA ones and the DA/SA and DAO ones...and the new SFS one (at the bottom).

SA

DA/SA


DA/SA Compact

SFS