burningsquirrels
Member
1911s will always be around and are still being made in spades, but the luger is not. i'd get the luger.
1911 or Luger?
- Thread starter Eightball
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Quoheleth
Member
I have no personal experience with Lugers, but only yesterday read Skeeter Skelton's articles in the twin volumes of his works published by ST a couple years back.
First, even 20-30 years ago, good Lugers were difficult (tho not impossible) to find.
A "Rube Goldberg system of levers levering levers," trigger pull can be atrocious. While known for their accuracy, their function is odd to American (read Browning) mindsets.
Finally, he had also discovered the Luger's problems with ammo. His theory was that American 9mm is loaded lighter than Canadian and European 9mm stuff, so the Luger's heavier springs wouldn't function reliably. While I'm not recalling if he recommended handloading to solve this problem, knowing Skeeter's love for handloading, I'm sure he considered that a solution.
To get his Luger, he bought a broken & beaten parts gun and rehabbed it himself (with a budd), including barrel, action job, polishing everything, and an overall bead-blast.
If it were me (and that's what this is about, right? opinions?) I would go with a 1911. To tie up that kind of cash in a gun for a collector piece at age 21, well, that's not how I think. Of course, that might explain why my New Mexico Cat Ranch has failed as well...
Gotta run...good luck with the decision,
Q
First, even 20-30 years ago, good Lugers were difficult (tho not impossible) to find.
A "Rube Goldberg system of levers levering levers," trigger pull can be atrocious. While known for their accuracy, their function is odd to American (read Browning) mindsets.
Finally, he had also discovered the Luger's problems with ammo. His theory was that American 9mm is loaded lighter than Canadian and European 9mm stuff, so the Luger's heavier springs wouldn't function reliably. While I'm not recalling if he recommended handloading to solve this problem, knowing Skeeter's love for handloading, I'm sure he considered that a solution.
To get his Luger, he bought a broken & beaten parts gun and rehabbed it himself (with a budd), including barrel, action job, polishing everything, and an overall bead-blast.
If it were me (and that's what this is about, right? opinions?) I would go with a 1911. To tie up that kind of cash in a gun for a collector piece at age 21, well, that's not how I think. Of course, that might explain why my New Mexico Cat Ranch has failed as well...
Gotta run...good luck with the decision,
Q
Jim Watson
Member
Kosh
Sorry, but I was a teenager at the time and all I knew was that the Canadian stuff, '43 headstamp, but noncorrosive, ran that 1936 S/42 just fine, but when supplies of that ran out, ordinary US commercial would not. That was 45 years ago and there was not the selection of ammunition that became available later. Not to mention that I did not start handloading until out of college. I soon sold the gun to a collector and went on to more modern stuff.
A friend has one of those Finnish surplus 1923s with Tikka 9mm barrel and funky square front sight. Bugs him no end that my "subsonic" IDPA reloads will function the gun and nothing he can buy will do so.
For the O.P.
Erfurt was a German Imperial arsenal and made Lugers before and during WW I. A gun with an Erfurt toggle, no date, mixed numbers, and obvious differences in wear here and there is a parts gun assembled who knows when or by whom. I'd pass and save up to buy a better example.
Quohelith,
I recall reading about Skeeter's Luger too. I also recall that his last mention of it, he was going to have to do some work on gun or ammo to get it to function reliably.
It is a common urban legend that Lugers are meant for "hotter European ammunition."
The 9mms tested here in 1903 when the caliber was new came with light and heavy loads, 124 grain bullets at 1030 and 1075 fps from a 4 inch barrel. They did get 1170 fps from a 6 inch barrel with the heavier load. The Rottweil powder used was apparently very progressive burning to give 50 fps per inch of barrel length.
Lee Jurras rounded up a selection of the famously "hot" WW II "submachine gun" German 9mm and tested it in the Super Vel pressure gun in the 1960s. He found that none of it gave exceptionally high pressures. I suspect its reputation came from high velocity-flat trajectory of light weight iron core and sintered iron ersatz bullets plus a lot of blast and flash from undeterred wartime powder.
Sorry, but I was a teenager at the time and all I knew was that the Canadian stuff, '43 headstamp, but noncorrosive, ran that 1936 S/42 just fine, but when supplies of that ran out, ordinary US commercial would not. That was 45 years ago and there was not the selection of ammunition that became available later. Not to mention that I did not start handloading until out of college. I soon sold the gun to a collector and went on to more modern stuff.
A friend has one of those Finnish surplus 1923s with Tikka 9mm barrel and funky square front sight. Bugs him no end that my "subsonic" IDPA reloads will function the gun and nothing he can buy will do so.
For the O.P.
Erfurt was a German Imperial arsenal and made Lugers before and during WW I. A gun with an Erfurt toggle, no date, mixed numbers, and obvious differences in wear here and there is a parts gun assembled who knows when or by whom. I'd pass and save up to buy a better example.
Quohelith,
I recall reading about Skeeter's Luger too. I also recall that his last mention of it, he was going to have to do some work on gun or ammo to get it to function reliably.
It is a common urban legend that Lugers are meant for "hotter European ammunition."
The 9mms tested here in 1903 when the caliber was new came with light and heavy loads, 124 grain bullets at 1030 and 1075 fps from a 4 inch barrel. They did get 1170 fps from a 6 inch barrel with the heavier load. The Rottweil powder used was apparently very progressive burning to give 50 fps per inch of barrel length.
Lee Jurras rounded up a selection of the famously "hot" WW II "submachine gun" German 9mm and tested it in the Super Vel pressure gun in the 1960s. He found that none of it gave exceptionally high pressures. I suspect its reputation came from high velocity-flat trajectory of light weight iron core and sintered iron ersatz bullets plus a lot of blast and flash from undeterred wartime powder.
robert garner
Member
I would go for the luger just not that luger. Last year I finally bought an Artillery model all#'s matching but re-blued as a shooter, and it both looks and shoots like new for 1200.
Ammois cheaper just get the 124 grainers;
robert
Ammois cheaper just get the 124 grainers;
robert
JesseL
Member
FlyinBryan said:
Me too. If you're interested, another High Roader has an excellent firearms info website with good writeups on the Walther P38 and Luger P08.
Here's the thread where I asked that same question and got my answer.
don95sml
Member
Eightball said:
Regarding the serial number, look at the front of the gun under the barrel. You should see a 4-digit number, with a lower case letter below it. This constitutes the serial number (for example, 4187b). If the gun had "matching parts", all of the parts in this example would be stamped 87. To address what I believe is your main question here, the serial number itself does not convey any info as to the gun's desirability.
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
That may be, but I owned two or three nice matching number Lugers in the 1960's-70's.
I could get none of them to function with Remington or Winchester FMJ ammo of the time. Stove-pipe after stove-pipe was the best they would do.
WWII German surplus ammo ran fine, and put empty cases in low-earth orbit.
You could bang off a full mag and it would still be raining brass on you while you were reloading another mag.
A Buddy just bought a matching WWII GI bring-back with the GI papers last year from an estate, and it worked fine with Wally-World WWB!
Go figure!
rcmodel
BigGunsMoreFun
Member
Buy the Luger if he'll come down on price
I don't know where you are at but a shooter Luger (parts gun) around these parts runs about $600 at the gun shows.
It also depends on if you want a "real" 1911 from back in the day or a modern one.
I have a nice P08 Luger from the WWI era that is all original. I paid a reasonable price for it many years ago. It's worth it's weight in gold now.
I bought a "shooter" Luger parts gun a few months ago at a gun show for $600 and it shoots any 9mm FMJ ammo I put through it. No jams, no slamfires, no stovepipes and it is fairly accurate to 25 yards although it is far from a tack driver.
I love the old original 1911s and hope to have an original WWI era 1911 someday but the price is just ridiculous on these nowadays. I do have a WWII era 1911A1 that I paid a little more than I wanted for but I think I got a good deal.
As for your choice, I agree with everyone that says get a Luger while you can. The 1911 will be around for a while. The Luger is getting scarce and much more expensive. A decent modern 1911 can be had for around $1,000. If you want a real 1911 from back in the day, you're going to have to save a little. They go from $2000 to $5000 depending on model, year, condition etc.
Good luck with either. Both guns are worth having.
Molon Labe,
Joe
I don't know where you are at but a shooter Luger (parts gun) around these parts runs about $600 at the gun shows.
It also depends on if you want a "real" 1911 from back in the day or a modern one.
I have a nice P08 Luger from the WWI era that is all original. I paid a reasonable price for it many years ago. It's worth it's weight in gold now.
I bought a "shooter" Luger parts gun a few months ago at a gun show for $600 and it shoots any 9mm FMJ ammo I put through it. No jams, no slamfires, no stovepipes and it is fairly accurate to 25 yards although it is far from a tack driver.
I love the old original 1911s and hope to have an original WWI era 1911 someday but the price is just ridiculous on these nowadays. I do have a WWII era 1911A1 that I paid a little more than I wanted for but I think I got a good deal.
As for your choice, I agree with everyone that says get a Luger while you can. The 1911 will be around for a while. The Luger is getting scarce and much more expensive. A decent modern 1911 can be had for around $1,000. If you want a real 1911 from back in the day, you're going to have to save a little. They go from $2000 to $5000 depending on model, year, condition etc.
Good luck with either. Both guns are worth having.
Molon Labe,
Joe
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