1911 photos question

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The dead horse has once again been resurrected!

Browning didn't design the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked. It didn't even have a thumb safety until the US Army requested it. He did, however, intend for the half-cock to be a safety...which requires lowering the hammer manually.

Note that Browning names the half cock as a safety position, along with instruction on lowering the hammer to that position...with one hand...is described in the original patents.

Hammer down on an empty chamber is Condition 3...not Condition 2.

Manually decocking a 1911 safely is easily doable if one either takes the time to figure out how, or have someone who knows how to provide instruction. Exposed hammer guns have been decocked for many years without incident by many thousands of people. Why is it that it suddenly becomes so dangerous with a 1911 or Browning Hi-Power?

Yes...It does carry a certain risk. As with any other potentially risky exercise, it does require one's full attention and care in order to prevent injury. So does carving a turkey and driving a car. Lowering a hammer on a hot chamber isn't something that's normally done in a hurry. Learn how, and take your time...and keep the gun pointed away from your feet, your children, and your dog when you do it.
 
Why in most photos, are they shown obviously cocked with the hammer back?
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I think it's because that means of carry is safe, simple, and (most importantly) very fast. Those design concepts come across nicely in photos accompanying 1911 stories. Most folks interested in 1911s are cognizant of the fact that Condition One is a common way to carry the piece. Not the only way, but in a photo, cocked-and-locked best shows the weapon optimized for business.

Face it...the 1911 is one of the very few handguns made where sight of a cocked hammer in a holster (or on a magazine cover) is not automatic cause for alarm among knowledgeable shooters. That's because the design is perfectly safe in that mode of readiness. Try splashing a cocked Colt SAA, Beretta 92, or Smith 686 on the cover of a gun magazine. You'd be pilloried by readership for depicting an accident waiting to happen. Not so with the 1911. Why? Because (almost) everyone knows that an extremely functional set of redundant safety features allow the hammer to be carried cocked and locked...with Baby Jesus' blessing.

Most folks who carry empty chamber are either needlessly nervous about the cocked and locked concept or are part of an organization whose leaders are nervous about that concept.

I regard a chamber-loaded Glock as a more significantly potential ND hazard than a cocked and locked 1911. That said, I find the Glock to be both well designed and perfectly safe to carry loaded...provided the user has benefited from a modicum of training and applies the basic rules of firearms safety. Those are exactly the same user attributes required to safely carry a loaded 1911.

Depicting a cocked and safetied 1911 in a photo merely showcases the weapon in its idealized natural state.

Hammer down on an empty chamber is fine too. Lots of folks successfully carry that way every day. You buys your ticket...you takes your chances.

Anywhoo...that's my $.02
 
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Note that Browning names the half cock as a safety position, along with instruction on lowering the hammer to that position...with one hand...is described in the original patents.
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Tuner-question for you. I have read Brownings patent and see his mention of the safety position. I actually went and practiced it as he outlined and it works very well one handed as he directed. (Calvalry soldiers needed the other hand to control their horse) But a 1940 US Army MOA makes no mention of it. When did the half cock stop being documented as a safety? The 1940 MOA does specifically mention Condition 3 if no engagement is imminent but Condition 1 if engagement is anticipated.

Thanks for any info you can add.
 
When I carry a 1911 it is always cocked and locked. Do you really want to be fumbling to cock the hammer of your 1911 when you only have seconds (if that) to respond to an attack?

If you're worried that carrying a 1911 cocked and locked is dangerous then you shouldn't be carrying a 1911 to begin with.
 
REAPER4206969: There are C&L capable versions of the 92.
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True. Double Action 1911 variants exist as well.

Neither represent mainstream production of 1911 or M92 design; both are relatively unknown except to enthusiasts. Low volume of production reduces them to mere novelties. The 92 is generally considered to be an SA/DA. The 1911 is generally considered to be an SA.

A cocked Beretta 92 depicted on a magazine cover would be considered pretty unusual.
 
This is really a matter of personal preference. When I am carrying my 1911 a round is chambered, but the hammer is down. There is a way to do this safely, and correctly. I've been lowering the hammer on chambered rounds longer than I can remember. There is nothing wrong with C&L If you are comfy with that combination. Shovels and Buckets make for great perimeter alarms as well Texas :)
 
Tuner-question for you. I have read Brownings patent and see his mention of the safety position. I actually went and practiced it as he outlined and it works very well one handed as he directed. (Calvalry soldiers needed the other hand to control their horse) But a 1940 US Army MOA makes no mention of it. When did the half cock stop being documented as a safety? The 1940 MOA does specifically mention Condition 3 if no engagement is imminent but Condition 1 if engagement is anticipated.
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The patents that described the half-cock as an at-the-ready safety position were from Februrary, 1910...before the addition of the thumb safety. Once that was added, using the half-cock as a safety was moot. It was faster, simpler, and safer to flick the manual safety on and wait for the fight to start. Thus, the half-cock notch was relegated to performing its other function of being a hammer arrestor in the event of a failed sear or hammer hooks. (The half-cock will stop the hammer, even with a full 1/8th inch of the sear crown missing.)

But, back to the half cock as a viable safety...for those who scream "NO! It's NO a safety!"

If we assume an original, captive notch...with the hammer in that position, the sear and hammer are interlocked. Pulling the trigger won't move the sear, and the hammer can't fall. Even the trigger won't move. The half-cock effectively disables the whole group. If that doesn't meet the requirements for a safety, I'd like to know what does.
 
Note that Browning names the half cock as a safety position
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not originally, but after the cavalry requested a way to put it into action one handed while having the other hand on the reins, mosses designed the thumb safety so it could be carried cocked and locked.

i wouldn't advise anyone to decock a 1911 on a live round. that's asking for it....
 
not originally, but after the cavalry requested a way to put it into action one handed while having the other hand on the reins, mosses designed the thumb safety so it could be carried cocked and locked.
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Oh, yes...Originally.

Browning's first submission was the Model of 1910...8 of them...none which had a thumb safety. The US Cavalry requested it. The thumb safety wasn't Browning's idea. The thumb safety enabled the gun to be placed on-safe with a chambered round when the situation called for it..."Action Iminent"...not specifically to be carried in that condition. Protocol required the trooper to return the pistol to Condition 3 when the emergency ended.
 
when was the thumb safety added?
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In the spring of 1910, Browning submitted 8 pistols to the Army Ordnance Board for evaluation and testing. None of the pistols had a thumb safety. The "Slide Locking Manual Safety" was then requested. Six of them were retrofitted with thumb safeties and resubmitted. The modification was accepted, and the rest is history.

As with all of Browning's exposed hammer guns, the half-cock was...by design and intent...a safety position. That carried over to his design for the US Army.
 
Do you really want to be fumbling to cock the hammer of your 1911 when you only have seconds (if that) to respond to an attack
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With a little practice, cocking the pistol on the draw can be surprisingly fast. Not as fast as flicking off the safety...but not lagging as far behind as you might think. It's actually cocked before the draw, as the hand finds the pistol, and it works very well.

When I carry a 1911, I normally carry cocked and locked. Back in my hikin'/campin/4-wheelin'/ boondockin' days...I carried in a full flap holster in Condition 2 in order to provide the internals with as much protection from the elements as possible while still allowing me to bring the gun into an emergency with one hand.
 
Cocking the hammer was probably a lot easier with the original design's short grip safety tang and large, checkered spurred hammer, instead of the beavertails and round hammers that are almost de rigueur on newer guns.
 
Cocking the hammer was probably a lot easier with the original design's short grip safety tang and large, checkered spurred hammer, instead of the beavertails and round hammers that are almost de rigueur on newer guns.
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Oh yeah. No such thing as a free lunch. An "improvement" in one area usually means losing or compromising another.

And those silly ducktail thingies ain't de rigeur on any of mine. Even though I rarely carry in C-2 these days, I still want the option to be open...just like lanyard loops.
 
was the patent and its accompanying diagrams updated after the addition for the thumb safety? After the addition did the Army MOA allow the hammer at half cock? The 1940 copy I found didn't mention it at all.

when was the feature of locking the trigger with no magazine inserted removed? it's in the 1910 patent.

Sorry to be a PIA but this stuff is fascinating.
 
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After the addition did the Army MOA allow the hammer at half cock?
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It was never authorized, as far as I know. Condition 1 when action was iminent or ongoing, and Condition 3 when the emergerncy had passed. I know that many soldiers in high-risk areas ignored the regs and did as they pleased...both as to cocked and locked and half-cocked...but officially it was as outlined in the field manuals.

when was the feature of locking the trigger with no magazine inserted removed
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Not sure.

Sorry to be a PITA...
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Not at all! It's good to address honest questions pertaining to the historical aspects.
So many myths and misconceptions surrounding the gun, that these points need to be clarified.
 
Cocking the hammer was probably a lot easier with the original design's short grip safety tang and large, checkered spurred hammer, instead of the beavertails and round hammers that are almost de rigueur on newer guns.
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A non-spur hammer isn't that hard to get back, but with a big beavertail the concept of "cocking on the draw" just doesn't work. And I have a beavertail because of my big monster-hands, so if anyone's thumb would reach it would be mine.

I've tried it with snap-caps, and one-handed cocking or decocking is a gamble. Even two-handed decocking is an un-necessary risk as far as I'm concerned, the safety lever works just fine and I'm not going to have nothing but my sweaty/greasy thumb holding the hammer off of the FP/primer.

The thumb safety enabled the gun to be placed on-safe with a chambered round when the situation called for it..."Action Iminent"...not specifically to be carried in that condition. Protocol required the trooper to return the pistol to Condition 3 when the emergency ended.
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That is fascinating, and makes a lot of sense for a group of pepole working as a team.
I'll consider such a method the moment I have more than one person with me at all times backing me up, until then I'll carry in a safe method as if I might need my pistol as soon as possible.
 
decocking the 1911

The safest way to decock the 1911 without racking the slide to remove a chambered round is to put the weak hand thumb between the hammer and rear of the slide. Depress the trigger dropping the hammer onto your thumb and remove your finger from the trigger prior to moving the weak hand thumb from under the hammer.
 
So who here would like to explain the proper method for decocking a 1911 with a round chambered before someone goes and tries it on their own..........?

This would be considered a valuable service and possibly save a member from a rude awakening.
 
Tuner, since everyone else is asking you questions, might I bother you with a request? I've read many of your responses and heeded your advice as best I could, but I don't recall seeing pictures of any of your pistols. Would you oblidge with a photo or two of your carry and perhaps a description of particulars including why?

Thank-you for all of the information you provide, I'm always intrigued when I run across your posts.
 
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