1911 questions

[Crow1108]

I'm not as well-versed on the 1911 as some of ya'll, so I figured I'd ask (looking to save up my pennies while I am in Korea and Japan and buy something nice for myself when I get back (PCS'ing in November)). Is their 1991 model a series 70 or series 80? I know their sell a series 70. Are their prices for their current production guns worth it, or is it mostly just "paying for a name"? Also, are the Springfield Mil-specs series 70 or series 80 guns? Which would you guys buy? I already have a Kimber that does okay by me, but I recently got a hankering for an original, no-frills 1911.

 

[bpl]

1991 models are series 80, I believe. I think they're worth it. Colts have better internal parts then the other production guns, as well as better resale value.

 

[Fractal X]

My understanding is that the Springfields (in general) are series 70 - though I'm new to 1911's myself so that may be bad info.

 

[russ45]

My best gun is a Colt Model 70 that has a trigger job, commander hammer, and high grip safety. I recently purchased a Colt Special Combat Government new for $1330 that is finished off real nice and feeds and shoots very reliably, but not the accuracy one would expect. It came with a tight 15-yd target that I have not been able to duplicate in 1000 rounds of all types. So the more you spend does not necessarily mean a better gun. The old Model 70 still shoots 1.5-inches at 25 yards after many thousands of rounds.

 

[PT-Partners]

There is a bit of name in whatever gun you get but keep in mind the name is normally earned not given. I retail the 1911 and specifically the custom as well as the one man shop.

Best recommendation, is be patient and target preowned from a known source.

Meaning when there is a discount, the discount is for a reason. Your undying gratitude has nothing do to with it.

Of the clients I have most seem to prefer the Colt in the newer model series 70 for two reasons. One is a bit nicer gun but you will have many different opinions there but also the history and name Colt.

Best in your quest.

 

[blaisenguns]

Series 70 vs Series 80

The series 70 is essentially the same as the earlier 1911 government model, but when it was originally introduced the only difference was it came with a collet bushing which was an attempt by colt to create a tighter lockup and thus better accuracy with out hand fitting. This design was retired because collet bushings wear out much faster than standard bushings, and did not create significantly tighter lockup. The series 80 was when colt introduced a firing pin stop safety mechanism, very similar to what you have on a Kimber. This mechanism locks the firing pin when the grip safety is not depressed. To the best of my knowledge all colts made after the series 80 was introduced (1980? Correct me if I am wrong.) maintain the firing pin block safety mechanism. As a stated earlier Kimber among other companies have copied this mechanism (with some alterations). I believe that the Springfield Armory pistols do not have this mechanism, as they are meant to be “Mil-Spec”. One more thing you might want to know is that this safety creates a harder trigger pull on older colts (obviously not Kimbers), many “smiths” would remove this mechanism in order to make a light match grade trigger pull. Bottom line, Kimbers are the best. Good luck, and I hope this helps!

 

[Jason_G]

This mechanism locks the firing pin when the grip safety is not depressed.

On Kimbers. Not on the Colts. The Colt FPB is (dis)engaged by the trigger.

Jason

 

[blaisenguns]

My bad! Thanks for finding that.

 

[JTQ]

The "baseline" Springfields are the GI and the Mil-Spec. They are very similar to each other with the biggest advantage for the slightly more expensive Mil-Spec being the higher profile 3 dot sights. Springfields are manufactured in Brazil (though some are assembled in the USA of Brazilian made parts) which generally account for much of the price advantage over Colt, the rest is attributed to better parts in the Colt. Springfields don't have a firing pin safety. However, they do have a lightweight titanium firing pin to help them be more "drop safe". They also have a key lock Integral Locking System (ILS) in the mainspring housing so you can lock your pistol if you want.

The "baseline" (at least looks-wise) Colt's are the 1991 and the Series 70 Reproduction. The 1991's are the less expensive model and have the Series 80 firing pin safety, long trigger, flat mainspring housing and 3 dot sights. The Series 70 Repro has no firing pin safety, a short trigger, arched housing, and high profile sights without the dots. I believe the Series 70 Repro is a Custom Shop item, though I'm not sure. All Colt 1911's have a "dimple" in chamber end of the barrel which is supposed to aid in feeding, especially non-ball profile rounds. I don't have any experience with this, but it sure seems like a great idea that I expect to see copied very soon.

The prices in ascending order are the GI, Mil-Spec, 1991, and Series 70 Repro. I believe each pistol is worth the increase in price. If you are short of cash the Springfield GI is probably a pretty good pistol, but if I had the cash I would buy a Colt and preferably the Series 70 Repro.

 

[Oro]

Are their prices for their current production guns worth it, or is it mostly just "paying for a name"?

I believe the current 1991/Series 80 Colt's to be an excellent value. I have a 2007 commander 1991 and it is one of the best "out of the box" 1911 style production guns I have ever seen.

I recently got a hankering for an original, no-frills 1911.

I think the Colt 1991 series fits this description well. Only major external mods to it from a no-frills 1911a1 style gun are a) return to the long trigger/flat MSH configuration, b) taller, more friendly three-dot combat sights, c) lowered ejection port. Most people consider these all desirable modifications that improve functionality yet preserve the original looks and styling.

The 70/80 safety issue is for me, a non-starter. It's simply not relevant as the system has been proven a) reliable and b) unimportant as to trigger "feel" and how it can be tuned. I avoided "80" guns for more than a decade and when I finally opened my mind enough to the issue I realized what a mistake that was.

Colt currently makes two guns without the 80 firing pin safety. The WWI reproduction and the Series '70 reproduction. Keep in mind the '70 repro is NOT at all an honest Series '70 reproduction; it's really just a Series 80 gun without the firing pin safety. If you have a fondness for the actual Series '70 guns (I do), then save a little more and get a high-condition original. If you don't want to shop used and want the convenience/support of a dealer, then look at any of the 1991 guns or the '70 or WWI repro. Any of those options are excellent choices.

 

[Jason_G]

If you have a fondness for the actual Series '70 guns (I do), then save a little more and get a high-condition original.

Not to hijack the OP's thread, but Oro, what's your opinion of the old Accurizer setup on the original 70's? Do the collet bushings hold up? I've heard from some that they do, and from others that they don't. I've never owned an original Series 70.

To Crow: What's your price range? If you can swing $1100 or so and you are looking for a nice 1911 packed with some of the best fitting and highest quality parts south of a semi-custom, you should check out Dan Wesson. If you don't want the "extras", and a no nonsense GI style pistol is what you want (which I believe it is from your post), I think the Colt WWI repro, or the Series-70 repro would my first choice, followed by the Springfield GI or Milspec. Of course, this is just my personal taste, and YMMV. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

Good luck and enjoy the hunt for "the one". 1911s are a whole lot of fun.



Jason

 

[Oro]

Not to hijack the OP's thread, but Oro, what's your opinion of the old Accurizer setup on the original 70's? Do the collet bushings hold up? I've heard from some that they do, and from others that they don't. I've never owned an original Series 70.

I think it's fair to ask as it's the uncomfortable discussion when talking about '70 guns. I'll try to separate fact, opinion and anecdote.

There are a few points about them that are facts:

1) The design itself is very creative and the engineering appealing.
2) Some have failed and locked up guns.
3) The bushings DO require a slightly different take-down method
4) Colt found them appealing enough to use them for 18 years of production.

The rest is opinion and anecdote:

From these facts, over the years I've developed a theory for some of the failures: failure to take down the bushing properly and putting lateral stress on the bushing fingers. This is an untested theory, and probably will always be just a theory.

The '70 barrel is ramped more sharply near the bearing surface. They were left much more tightly fit than prior models. Until well broken-in, to take them down properly you needed to unlock the slide 1/2", THEN turn the bushing. Instead of doing this, most folks bought wrenches and just monkey-armed them off with force. I think this had something to do with weakening some of them.

The other fact is that in 18 years of warranty service, Colt never saw fit to change them - they provided ease to the manufacturing process, and very good accuracy - usually improving with wear, actually.

So my opinion is that I like them. In the matrix of Performance benefit/maintenance hassle/potential problems, I side with liking them very much. In fact, if you could fit them on non-'70 barrels, I'd drop them in some of my other guns when needed.

Others will find they fall on the other side of the matrix, and that's OK. But I've never had a problem with them and I get enhanced performance out of them. This is my opinion and I don't expect everyone to share it or follow it. But my '70 guns still have their original "Accurizer" bushings and I like them.

 

[Jason_G]

Thanks a lot for the info, Oro.

Crow, did you ever decide on anything?

Jason

 

[glocks rock]

I'm partial to Colt. I think they build a great 1911 and I am willing to pay a little extra for them. SA also builds a good 1911. The mil spec is a better deal than the GI. It has a lowered ejection port, beveled mag well and 3 dot sights. If it was my money, I'd get the 70 series Colt. The 80 series is a good gun but i just prefer the 70 series. BTW, all SA's are 70 series . They use a titanium fireing pin and an extra power fireing pin spring.

 

[kanewpadle]

If you want a GI model stick with Springfield. If you want something fancy that actually works well. Try Dan Wesson.