1911 sear breaking

[lilidiot]

I guess the left handed military in South east Asia never got the memo from Browning. The only way to perform guard duty was at half cocked and it was a very common practice while I was there. I am also told by my WWII friends that it was done in Europe as well by lefties.

I guess the inattentiveness to left hand users was another Browning 1911 design flaw like the over stressed pegged on plunger tubes and frame mounted ejectors. Now tell me how many you have re-staked back on. I even bought the jig from Brownells to redo mine. Contrary to popular opinion I don't feel the 1911 is the end all be all of handguns.

I also don't feel you need to shoot someone with a marble sized 1/2 inch hunk of lead to stop him either. We also won some wars with out hollow point bullets as well and we are not doing too awful bad in the Middle East with a 3/8 size hunk of lead either. It seems to be all subjective and I keep an open mind.

I am a firm believer that the 9x18 Makarov was the best military pistol ever designed and put into service. The again that's just me!

 

[1911Tuner]

I guess the left handed military in South east Asia never got the memo from Browning.

Well nowwww. Hmmmm. The only "guards" I ever saw carryin' pistols were MPs and SPs...and they weren't authorized to carry with a hot chamber....cocked and locked...hammer down on a hot chamber...or half-cocked on a hot chamber. Garrisoned troops on watch generally carried rifles...and unless it was on a fire base perimeter...they had to be carried with an empty chamber, too.

Oh...and I said that Browning did consider the half-cock to be a safety position. Read more carefully. The Army Ordnance Board didn't, and never authorized it...neither in the field nor in the TO&E. Of course, the farther from Battalion you get, the looser the rules are, and men will do what their gut tells'em to...but there was never an authorization to carry one in that condition as you're suggesting. Your duty Sergeant may have okayed it...but he did so in violation of the regs.

Now, if you were Air Force...all bets are off.

Contrary to popular opinion I don't feel the 1911 is the end all be all of handguns.

Nor do I...but that's not germaine to the discussion. The question was about sear breakage...not what we consider to be the best pistol.



Anyway...back on topic. The sear can break off a full 1/8th inch of the crown, and the half-cock will catch it and stop the hammer. We're assuming the original captive half-cock, and not the redesigned stop shelf as seen on the Series 80 Colt hammers and others of the same ilk.

 

[lilidiot]

Frankly, the pistols we got in Vietnam were so worn and dilapidated that safeties would fall down under their own weight or were frozen or broken so just about all of the guys carried at half cock and hoped the grip safety would hold.

All in all they were still better than the Colt M16 a poor excuse of a rifle that was a jamomatic. Chinese AK 47s was held in high regard and ammunition was plentiful as well. Roll em and strip em was the order of the day on patrol.

 

[1911Tuner]

I understand. I saw a few like that myself...mostly the ones that were procured rather than actually issued. The issued pistols...what few there actually were...were in pretty good shape. I was one of the guys who helped to see that they were.

As for the M16...Good weapon for garrison troops and airfield guards. Not so good in the field unless kept clean and wet with oil. I even disassembled and cleaned magazines almost every day. Much preferred the M14, but they didn't ask me. It was more like:

"You choose this weapon!"

"Yes Master Gunny!"

"Outstanding!"

 

[Echo9]

So....... "no" then?

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

If the sear breaks and the trigger was not pulled, shouldn't the half cock catch the hammer?

 

[Echo9]

No. The sear is the part that actually gets caught in the half-cock notch. If the sear is no longer there, there's nothing for the half-cock notch to engage.

 

[HisSoldier]

Under what circumstances does the sear disappear entirely? How do you do that? At what point do rational people agree that a gun is safe under normal wear and tear? If you throw a gun into a rock crusher and it doesn't go off 2 out of 10 times?

 

[1911Tuner]

Under what circumstances does the sear disappear entirely?

Indeed!


Just for what it's worth...I've never seen a sear catastrophically fail in nearly 50 years with the 1911 platform. I've seen a couple of the old Thompson Auto ORdnance cast sears chip the crowns...discovered during detail strip for cleaning...but since the guns continued to function normally...there was no telling how long they'd been in that condition.

I've tried to break sears...both machined steel and MIM...by laying them concave side down on an anvil and hitting them with hammers. Bent, but not broken, and certainly not shattered. I did see a picture of an MIM sear with a crack in one of the legs, but again...no malfunction occurred as a result.

The 1911's sear simply isn't under enough stress to shatter or just go away suddenly. It's not that fragile. We can do the "What If Shuffle" until pigs fly in the attempt to discredit all factual evidence if we want to...but it still won't alter the facts except in the minds of a few.

 

[gglass]

lilidiot
Hey guys the resurgence of the 1911 though clones are some pretty guns, but lets get realistic the design is 100 years old and antiquated. Even our military has abandoned them. There are far better pistols out there and .45 bullets are not the only ones that kill people. When have you ever seen a military functional repeating .45 caliber rifle. The M1 and M14 were .30 caliber or 7mm and the current military rifle is .22 caliber or 5mm.

Are you trying to give your forum name some meaning?

The reason that the dropped the M1911A1 was due to a deal to appease our NATO allies, which gave us the Beretta M9. This was not done because the 1911 design was antiquated.

When the FBI sourced a new handgun for their elite Hostage Rescue Team in the late 90's, they would not accept anything but a 1911... Does that sound like a handgun that is antiquated? If it is so antiquated, why do nearly all of the US army and Marine elite forces and even police SWAT teams choose the M1911? If given a choice, most real professionals will choose a 1911.

WIKIPEDIA
Some military and law enforcement organizations in the United States and other countries continue to use (often modified) M1911A1 pistols including Marine Force Recon, Los Angeles Police Department S.W.A.T. and L.A.P.D. S.I.S., the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, F.B.I. regional S.W.A.T. teams, and 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment—Delta (Delta Force). The Tacoma, Washington Police Department selected the Kimber Pro Carry II or Pro Carry II HD as optional, department supplied weapons available to its officers.

The Springfield Custom Professional Model 1911A1 pistol is produced under contract by Springfield Armory for the FBI regional SWAT teams and the Hostage Rescue Team. This pistol is made in batches on a regular basis by the Springfield Custom Shop, and a few examples from most runs are made available for sale to the general public.

 

[Slamfire]

The reason that the dropped the M1911A1 was due to a deal to appease our NATO allies, which gave us the Beretta M9. This was not done because the 1911 design was antiquated.

Well it all depends on who is writing the requirement document, does it not?

I talked to the guy who claimed he "wrote"* the Joint Operation Requirements Document, and he thought the M1911 was antiquated. Or something to that effect.

The military specifically wrote the requirements to exclude the M1911. And it was not because they wanted the pistol.

* No one person writes a Requirements Document but if you are in charge, you can have a big influence.

 

[SSN Vet]

the pistols we got in Vietnam were so worn and dilapidated

and 20 years later they wound up in the small arms lockers of many naval vessels for their 4th life....

as for NATO compatibility, when you look at the ratio of US troops to "allies" in both Iraq and Afghanistan, I think they should be the ones who worry about being compatible with us.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Frankly, the pistols we got in Vietnam were so worn and dilapidated that safeties would fall down under their own weight or were frozen or broken so just about all of the guys carried at half cock and hoped the grip safety would hold.

All in all they were still better than the Colt M16 a poor excuse of a rifle that was a jamomatic. Chinese AK 47s was held in high regard and ammunition was plentiful as well. Roll em and strip em was the order of the day on patrol.

There was fairly recently a poster on thefiringline.com who's sole mission in life seemed to be denigrating the 1911. He also spoke of his horrible experiences with it in Viet Nam. I don't suppose you have any aliases do you; like for example Boomer9mm?

 

[1911Tuner]

I talked to the guy who claimed he "wrote"* the Joint Operation Requirements Document, and he thought the M1911 was antiquated.

Wow! Somebody that finally claimed that they were somethin' besides a Marine Force Recon Special Forces Navy Seal Sniper? Now I've heard it all...

Anyway...The fears of a sear shattering are unfounded. Go to a gunsmith and ask him for a take-off sear and go beat on it with a hammer to see what it takes to even crack one. Then, decide for yourselves if you believe that keeping one under a cocked hammer will cause it to fail in such a manner as to cause a discharge.

 

[Walkalong]

An aside...Just curious lilmf, why the name change to lilidiot?

 

[gglass]

SlamFire1
Well it all depends on who is writing the requirement document, does it not?

I talked to the guy who claimed he "wrote"* the Joint Operation Requirements Document, and he thought the M1911 was antiquated. Or something to that effect.

The military specifically wrote the requirements to exclude the M1911. And it was not because they wanted the pistol.

* No one person writes a Requirements Document but if you are in charge, you can have a big influence.

Well, according to sources including this one, the US Army and Marines are still pretty infatuated with the 1911 today. Maybe your "guy" just simply has an opinion to bolster his theory.

Garrett, Rob, "Army Marksmanship Unit: The Pipeline for Spec Ops Weapons", Tactical Weapons Magazine (Harris Publications, Inc.)

Due to an increased demand for M1911 pistols among Army Special Operations units, who are known to field a variety of M1911 pistols, the Army Marksmanship Unit began looking to develop a new generation of M1911s and launched the M1911-A2 project in late 2004. The goal was to produce a minimum of seven variants with various sights, internal and external extractors, flat and arched mainspring housings, integral and add-on magazine wells, a variety of finishes and other options, with the idea of providing the end-user a selection from which to select the features that best fit their missions. The AMU performed a well received demonstration of the first group of pistols to the Marine Corps at Quantico and various Special Operations units at Ft. Bragg and other locations. The project provided a feasibility study with insight into future projects. Models were loaned to various Special Operations units, the results of which are classified. An RFP was issued for a Joint Combat Pistol but it was ultimately canceled. Currently units are experimenting with an M1911 platform in .40 which will incorporate lessons learned from the M1911 A2 project. Ultimately, the M1911 A2 project provided a test bed for improving existing M1911s. An improved M1911 variant becoming available in the future is a possibility.

 

[Slamfire]

An RFP was issued for a Joint Combat Pistol but it was ultimately canceled.

Don't know why but I would be very surprised if a new RFP for a new pistol is ever authorized.

An improved M1911 variant becoming available in the future is a possibility

.

The possibility of an improved M1911 variant replacing the existing side arm is close to 0.001%