1911 slam- fire. Yes, this is a thing.

[FL-NC]

After shooting 100 trouble-free rounds through my Springfield mil-spec at the range today, and doing a BASIC disassembly (didn't take down the frame) and cleaning, I locked the slide to the rear, inserted a mag of Federal 230 grain ball, pointed in a safe direction (down) and released the slide. BANG! No, my finger wasn't on the trigger (and even if it was, it shouldn't have mattered). Round hit the floor (and stayed there), loose cleaning patches nearby went flying, etc. After taking the rest of the rounds out and insuring the round didn't exit the building or hit anything important- I locked the slide on the cleared pistol and released it a few times. The hammer followed the slide about 50% of the time. So obviously this pistol needs to be fixed. Not sure what the problem is and not sure I even care right now (I'm thinking sear spring though). Anyone else have this happen? I've heard of it but never actually even met anyone else who has even witnessed it. I got this gun about a year ago second-hand and I've fired about 1k rounds through it with no issues (until now). I was issued and trained extensively with the 1911A1 when I joined the military, where I ended up staying for over 20 years. So I'm fairly knowledgeable where it comes to safe handling/loading procedures of a handgun. And yes my ears are still ringing and this happened hours ago.

 

[Telekinesis]

Hammer follow can sometimes happen on 1911s and other hammer fired guns. I have a Makarov that does this occasionally, but only if I use the slide release. The hammer remains back if I pull the slide back and slingshot the slide. Anyway, I believe that replacing the sear and hammer should fix it.

And Yeah, your ears will ring for a while and you will probably notice some long term hearing loss once the ringing stops. That's just what happens when you shoot guns indoors without ear pro or a suppressor. Keep that in mind if you keep a gun for HD. A pair of electronic earmuffs could be helpful should you need your gun.

 

[edwardware]

Not a slam-fire (that's due to firing pin velocity) but a hammer-follow. I've had two 1911s that would quickly round their sear noses if allowed to slam into battery empty; both were Kimbers.

I doubt the sear spring is bad; it's more likely the sear nose is chipped/rounded, or the hammer hooks are chipped/rounded. I in either case the safety notch isn't catching the sear on the way past, and that's a problem.

If you like working on 1911's, it's not hard to fit new parts, but I'll bet Springfield will take care of you for free if you call them.

 

[Shaq]

The gun should go to Springfield with a letter that states you bought it used & you want the gun thoroughly inspected & any altered parts or non OEM parts should be replaced. Frequently, a non gunsmith tries some home gunsmithing, polishing, etc. & screws up the gun, then sells it as "customized." Some internal parts on a gun are surface hardened. It's possible that a tinkerer will polish the part, exposing the soft metal underneath which leads to the part wearing quickly - within a few hundred rounds.
I experienced that with a slightly-used Sigarms P226. Half the time the gun would misfire, leaving a light dent or scratch on the firing pin. The previous owner tried some "polishing."

 

[243winxb]

Seen -- 1. A new Clark custom 45, indoor 50 ft range . First round loaded, fired. The round bounced off the side wall and into the back stop.

2. At a Bullseye match, 50 shooters on the line. At the command to load, a guys 45 doubled. When it happened the 2nd time, he was done. Didnt have a backup gun.

3. Seen a Ruger MK1 22lr double while i was the range officer. It had trigger work done. Only did it after a cleaning. Must have been caused by lube on the hammer/ sear engagement.

Anyone else have this happen? I've heard of it but never actually even met anyone else who has even witnessed it.

Had a Walther P38 fire 1 shot on loading.


Closed a 12 ga double barrel and it fired. Worn hammer sear engagement.

 

[bannockburn]

FL-NC

Years ago I had a Colt Government that had been "customized" by someone. Trigger pull was scary light so I started by loading one round in the mag and firing. No problem. Loaded two rounds, fired the first one and then the hammer followed and fired the second round without me even pulling the trigger. Also had problems with the rear adjustable sight coming loose. Fixed both and then sold the gun.

 

[larryh1108]

I agree with others that a bad sear or hammer catch (or both) are the culprit. It should be easy to eyeball if it is damaged.

 

[drband]

As noted, there can be many issues. However the problem could be as simple as improper sear spring asssembly after a frame strip. If the legs of the sear spring are not placed properly before sliding the mainspring housing up to retain the sear spring you can get hammer follow even if the sear and disconnector are good. Happened to me early on with my first 1911. Happily, my instructor disassembled the pistol, reassembled it properly and it was then 100% (years ago--no reoccurrence). I now can do this myself, but when I was new to 1911s it seemed daunting.

Suggestion, take it to a good gunsmith who can check it for you to rule it out before sending it to Springfield--you may be pleasantly surprised.

 

[cfullgraf]

Allowing the slide of an M1911 to slam home on an empty chamber is not good for the trigger system. It can cause functioning problems and premature wear/failure over time.

It is best to ride the slide home when closing it on an empty chamber to reduce the impact of the slide going into battery.

 

[FL-NC]

drband- I didn't take down the frame- I don't think that sear spring could just jump into the wrong place without messing with the MSH and grip safety. When I was in the army and we had 1911A1's in the 80's dry-firing was a part of life, and we routinely stripped them down all the way after the range. Yes, sometimes guys would screw up installing the sear spring (which would be evident during a function check) but despite everything we never had a slam-fire that I recall, and our pistols were old (as I understand, the army quit buying 1911A1's during WW2, so our pistols were at least 40+ years old at the time). I'm heading overseas in less than a week so I don't have time to mess with this. I'm kind of leaning towards getting one of the drop-in "trigger jobs" from either Nowlin or cylinder and slide that Brownells sells after I get back. Any opinions on these?

 

[drband]

I just assumed the previous owner could have assembled it incorrectly, not that you had done so.

As far as drop-in trigger options, I have no experience but I would feel comfortable with the C&S options.

 

[ny32182]

I don't know 1911's specifically, but I see this a lot in CZ type competition guns with overcooked trigger jobs. People take too much metal off the sear or hammer hooks, and the hammer will follow. It can also wear this way naturally after enough shooting; usually around 50k in that design.

However, that design has secondary safety features that prevent the gun from firing... one or both of firing pin block and safety notch on the hammer that will prevent it from actually falling all the way.

I'd still look at the hammer/sear engagement first.

 

[1911WB]

I've had a couple of P08 Lugers fire on toggle close at the range. It's very disconcerting to say the least. You've been given a lot of good advice here, but the best is to send it to Springfield for assessment & service. Bill

 

[Drail]

"Dry firing a 1911 with no snap cap can cause the sear hammer engagement to wear excessively.." That is not true. You have been misinformed.

 

[BobWright]

As a matter of record, I've never had a Ruger slam fire when I snapped the loading gate shut.

Bob Wright

 

[ny32182]

This isn't really a "slam fire" in the normal sense, if the hammer fell... at least not how I think about them. Normally a slam fire is the result of a stuck firing pin or something along that line (would be very tough to accomplish in any autoloader with the case sliding up the breech face), where the trigger mechanism doesn't activate.

Seriously if all it takes is a hammer follow for the gun to fire, I'd be pretty leery of doing much of anything with that gun. It happens. I think there (should be) at least one secondary safety measure built in to stop the gun from firing. I know not all 1911's have a firing pin block... does this one? If it does, it isn't functioning correctly. Do they make 1911 hammers with a secondary notch for the sear to catch in this exact kind of event?

As sears and hammers get worn, either through bad gunsmithing or enough normal wear, this WILL happen eventually and there should be some safety mechanism in place to stop either the hammer or firing pin or both before the gun fires, if the trigger is not pulled.

 

[RX-79G]

Dry firing a 1911 with no snap cap can cause the sear/hammer engagement to wear excessively. I agree with others that a bad sear or hammer catch (or both) are the culprit. It should be easy to eyeball if it is damaged.

What does a snap cap have to do with the sear?

 

[Coltdriver]

I have a friend at work who got a new magnum research 1911 and it would go full auto on day one. It can happen and as pointed out above its usually someone trying to fine tune the sear who goes a bit overboard. I would not be surprised if the factory fixed it for you at no charge.

 

[Deanimator]

My guess would be that somebody did a "trigger job" on it and reduced the sear engagement to unsafe levels.

I would suggest that you take the gun to somebody who KNOWS M1911s. Depending upon how much "improvement" was done, they may end up replacing some parts and doing a REAL trigger job on it that's both crisp and reasonably light, AND safe.

All of my M1911s save one have had competent EIC legal 4lb. trigger jobs done on them. NONE of them does this, although one of them (a Norinco which I no longer own) followed BEFORE the trigger job. The garbage Chinese parts were replaced with good parts, and a trigger job done. It was 100% reliable thereafter.

 

[Deanimator]

This isn't really a "slam fire" in the normal sense, if the hammer fell... at least not how I think about them. Normally a slam fire is the result of a stuck firing pin or something along that line (would be very tough to accomplish in any autoloader with the case sliding up the breech face), where the trigger mechanism doesn't activate.

It can happen with an out of spec firing pin, or if the firing pin channel is obstructed, as with old grease.

As I recall the Star BMs and BKMs had firing pins that would protrude beyond the breech face when the hammer was down. I seem to remember this being discussed back in the late '70s or early '80s, as well as the practice of shortening the firing pins so that they were truly inertial.

 

[RecoilRob]

Back in the 'old days' the guys with target 1911's would always hold the trigger back when chambering a round thus employing the disconnector to hold the hammer rather than letting it slam at full speed onto the sear. This practice today would likely get you thrown off of a range for being 'unsafe'...but it's perfectly OK IMHO. This would explain why you were able to fire a thousand rounds without issue because the hammer was let down gently onto the sear after each shot by the disconnector. I have a habit of holding the trigger when chambering a round...old dog cannot learn new tricks with the 1911...but I agree that the hammer really shouldn't follow without employing the disconnector unless things are rounded and worn...or dirty. Might just be a grain of powder in the exact wrong place and before sending it off I'd give it a good cleaning inside.

 

[RX-79G]

Back in the 'old days' the guys with target 1911's would always hold the trigger back when chambering a round thus employing the disconnector to hold the hammer rather than letting it slam at full speed onto the sear.

That isn't how it works at all.

When you hold down the trigger it lifts the sear off the hammer, but only until the slide position pushes the disconnector down. At that point the sear is disconnected from the trigger, and the sear spring pushes the sear back in contact with the hammer hooks, allowing it to catch and hold the hammer when the slide is brought forward. The disconnector cannot and does not "hold the hammer".

Whether there is any actual benefit to this technique I can't say, because the sear is only lifted off the hammer for a few degrees of hammer rotation before the disconnector releases it.

 

[pblanc]

This isn't really a "slam fire" in the normal sense, if the hammer fell... at least not how I think about them. Normally a slam fire is the result of a stuck firing pin or something along that line (would be very tough to accomplish in any autoloader with the case sliding up the breech face), where the trigger mechanism doesn't activate.

Seriously if all it takes is a hammer follow for the gun to fire, I'd be pretty leery of doing much of anything with that gun. It happens. I think there (should be) at least one secondary safety measure built in to stop the gun from firing. I know not all 1911's have a firing pin block... does this one? If it does, it isn't functioning correctly. Do they make 1911 hammers with a secondary notch for the sear to catch in this exact kind of event?

As sears and hammers get worn, either through bad gunsmithing or enough normal wear, this WILL happen eventually and there should be some safety mechanism in place to stop either the hammer or firing pin or both before the gun fires, if the trigger is not pulled.

I am pretty sure the Springfield Armory Mil-Spec model 1911A1 is a Series 70 type pistol that does not have a firing pin block. But the hammer should have a half-cock notch that allows the sear to capture the hammer before it strikes the firing pin in the event of a "sear bounce" releasing the hammer when releasing the slide.

But if the sear nose is badly worn or rounded off, or if the sear spring is not exerting sufficient pressure on the sear, or if something is binding the free movement of the sear, the sear may fail to capture the half-cock notch.

 

[RX-79G]

I am pretty sure the Springfield Armory Mil-Spec model 1911A1 is a Series 70 type pistol that does not have a firing pin block.

That's not what he's referring to. On Browning designs like the 1911 or a Glock, the case head slides up the breechface during loading. Even if the firing pin was sticking out, the case rim is going to push it back in before it is aligned with the primer.

True "slam fires" with Browning type pistols are really difficult, and usually involve really oversprung recoil spring. Which is probably why Wolff includes an extra power firing pin spring with some of their recoil springs.

 

[larryh1108]

"Dry firing a 1911 with no snap cap can cause the sear hammer engagement to wear excessively.." That is not true. You have been misinformed.

What does a snap cap have to do with the sear?

Correct. My brain was saying dropping the slide on an empty chamber and it came out dry firing. Dry firing will not harm the 1911. Slamming the slide on an empty chamber can cause sear bounce and hurt a nice trigger job and possibly damage the sear.