1911 Slide Releases

[1911Tuner]

Similarly, I weary of being told only to use one method over the other.

Hey..really. The slide has grooves/serrations and the slidestop has checkering/serrations. We've got a choice, depending on the situation.

And all this talk of speed reloading. Thousads of people have successfully defended life and limb with 5 and 6-shot revolvers..single and double-action...for many years. All of a sudden, if we don't have 5 spare magazines on our belt, and can swap'em as fast as Travis Tomasie...we're at risk of being overrun down at the neighborhood Piggly Wiggly on Friday night.

 

[Clarence]

Why would you want to use the slide stop to release the slide? As far as I know the proper way to release the slide on the 1911 is the wrap the top of the off hand over the top of the slide while grasping it firmly and pulling to the rear............then let go.......you're back in action.

Seriously, I NEVER use the slide stop to release the slide...........ever.

If YOU want to......just learn to use your left thumb.

 

[1911Tuner]

Why would you want to use the slide stop to release the slide?

Because it was designed to release it? Nah. Browning and the Army Ordnance Department put that checkering on the stop 'cause they thought it looked good.

Seriously, I NEVER use the slide stop to release the slide...........

As is your choice. The gun is designed to give us that choice...probably just in case we don't have the full use of both hands when we're suddenly up to our gonads in gorillas.

If YOU want to......just learn to use your left thumb.

Speakin' for myself...yer about 40 years too late, lad. For some...about 80 years.

 

[David E]

Why would you want to use the slide stop to release the slide?

Because it's quicker.

For many, it's more consistent and reliable. As mentioned, some people stupidly "assist" the slide forward, causing a jam or failure to lock into battery. Using the slide stop prevents that.

Further, if you had a shok-buff installed, (or the gun you picked up during the fight has one installed) you can't retract the slide far enough to disengage the slide stop.

Two reasons that I don't (teach the overhand method).....although I have nothing against this method if continous training is used by the shooter. (I prefer the "slingshot" method)

First: Shooters, under stress, will accidentally block the ejection port causing a Jam. This happens during clearing a miss fire or light primer strike or whenever you need to clear a round "already" inside the chamber.

If the student blocks the ejection port with their hand, they're doing it wrong. Grab the slide behind the ejection port, palm down, thumb to rear and pull it back completely. It's not a difficult feat to learn, perform or remember.

Second: Shooters can have a tendency to "ride" the Slide when performing a reload .......... depends on the speed at which they can remove their hand. As you well know ........"fine" motor skills are affected first when under extreme stress ........ and what we see as simple movements can become difficult tasks under stress.

I'm presuming that by "slingshot method" you mean grasping the rear of the slide with thumb and forefinger, the left thumb being on the right side of the slide, the forefinger curled up against the left side. If you mean something different, please describe it. My comments concern my defintion.

The problem with the "Slingshot method" is that it requires several things to work:

1) Finger strength (many people do not have enough finger strength to pull slide back far enough against a 14# - 20# recoil spring that has the final, most difficult compression, using only two fingers with which to do it.

2) It requires more fine motor skills than the overhand method.

3) If the fingers are wet with sweat or blood, a difficult task just became more difficult.


Again, it would behoove the serious student to learn both methods. If you pick up a downed cops Glock with the slide locked open and there is still someone to shoot at, that's a poor time to try and find the miniscule factory Glock slide release if you only learn to drop the slide that way. Same problem the other way if the gun is a 1911 with a shok-buff installed.

If the slide doesn't go forward per your usual technique, immediately tranistion to the other one. Learn both, practice both.

 

[David E]

Many reports of Rebs and Yanks loading 3 or 4 cartridges in their muskets because they didn't realize that the rifles hadn't fired when they pulled the triggers.

And some people hit the accelerator instead of the brake seconds before the car crash..... And some people hit the brakes while successfully swerving to avoid the accident.

Besides...sometimes the empty pistol doesn't lock the slide.

Which is why noted Defense Firearms Trainer, John Farnam teaches his students to rack the slide following ANY reload. HIs reasoning is exactly as you state: the gun may not have locked open after the last round and closed on an empty chamber. It ensures that there IS a round in the chamber, even if it means jettisoning one. (there are pros and cons to this method, but I mention it because he's a high profile trainer)

It's the third most likely malfunction, following closely behind failure to feed and failure to eject...so I refuse to rely on it.

But you will rely on your ability to accurately count your rounds, while taking fire and/or being hit. You cite cases of men, under fire, loading 3-4 rounds into their muskets as a reason against another method, so why doesn't it apply here? There are countless cases where cops/citizens couldn't believe how many rounds they fired. They "thought" it was only 2-3, but the facts show they shot their gun empty.

Another problem I have with counting rounds in a defensive situation is, what if he needs a 7th shot NOW ? Like, this very micro-second !!! I should reload anyway? I don't think so.

 

[David E]

counting shots is a skill some have or can learn. i do know that doing so saves me more than 1/2 second in a IDPA or any kind of match requiring a reload.

With all due respect, if you're counting your rounds in an IDPA match, you're doing it wrong. (ie; slower than necessary)

May I ask your classification?

 

[Mad Magyar]

Why would you want to use the slide stop to release the slide?

Okay, it's in the movies, but if you seen Bruce Willis in "Last Man Standing" in the scene where he's firing-reloading two 1911's (a full minute) that would make J. Miculek proud: you'd understand....

 

[1911Tuner]

But you will rely on your ability to accurately count your rounds,

I don't/won't rely on any one thing. I will also work hard to insure that I don't let my pistol run dry. It's not about guarantees. It's about striving to stack the odds in my favor....even small ones. Small odds get us killed or let us walk away. People who lose their heads have about a 50/50 chance, all else being equal. If I can keep my wits about me, I can increase that to about 60/40. If I actually have need of a reload...doing it before the gun goes click can bring that up another 5 points, and so on.

Another problem I have with counting rounds in a defensive situation is, what if he needs a 7th shot NOW ?

Then use it...like NOW. That's what it's there for. One does have to assess each situation as one encounters it. I never said to stop firing, no matter what. I said to reload the gun before it locks open.
If the situation dictates that you need to shoot...shoot.

Jeff Cooper's Fun House phase had one cardinal rule. "If your gun runs dry, you are judged killed. No exceptions." That makes good sense. The Fun House was/is a training aid to teach people how to survive deadly encounters...not win/place/show at an IDPA match.

if you're counting your rounds in an IDPA match, you're doing it wrong. (

Several years ago, one of our esteemed members attended a "Let's pretend" match with Charles Askins. When the shootin' was done, he asked the Colonel what he thought. The answer was:

"These boys shoot pretty good...but if these were real gunfights, I haven't seen anybody shoot yet that would still be alive."

Bottom line is one of the rules of combat. (Paraphrased)

"Anything that you do can get you killed...and that includes doing everything right."

 

[David E]

In previous posts you mentioned about how to train your "auto response" and you rountinely practice firing 6 rds and reloading. This seems to be training your "auto response" to reload after the 6th shot.

At Gunsite, it used to be that if you were caught with your slide open, you'd have to buy a case of beer. They stopped doing that when they ran out of room to put all the beer. (Gunsite is how many acres? )

If students know there is a penalty for doing something they're training specifically not to do but do it anyway reveals much.

One thing that can be gleaned from that is why it's important to have a good method to perform a slidelock reload ingrained into your skillset.

It's one thing to keep track of 5-9 rounds and quite another to keep track of 16-20 rds while exchanging gunfire with badguy(s) that are actively trying to kill you.

 

[1911Tuner]

One thing that can be gleaned from that is why it's important to have a good method to perform a slidelock reload ingrained into your skillset.

I do...every time I lock in a new magazine, even though the slide isn't locked open. I slap the mag home, and hit the stop with my left thumb as I bring the gun back to firing position.

It's one thing to keep track of 5-9 rounds and quite another to keep track of 16-20 rds while exchanging gunfire with badguy(s) that are actively trying to kill you.

Sounds like you're either a high-speed/low-drag SWAT leader...or you live in a really bad neighborhood.

If you...and that's a generalized "you" rather than a personal one...engage in a gun battle, where you fire and maneuver to outflank all those bad guys...and close and destroy'em...do you think that the mayor is gonna hand you the key to the city?

No.

You've become part of the problem by demonstrating that you were a willing, active, even aggressive combatant. They're gonna charge you with murder, and before county lockup is through processing you...the police chief will be holding a photo-op news conference to use your escapade as proof of why it's so dangerous and irresponsible for private citizens to take the law into their own hands.

Come trial time, you'll be hard pressed to prove self defense when witnesses place you movng toward the opposition while you shoot people instead of running from it.
Even standing your ground is shaky ground. It demsonstrates that you're willing...when you should be trying to leave the area with all your heart and soul unless you can show that you were surrounded and unable to move without being killed.

If you're at home...you're probably in good shape. On a downtown street...not so much.
Even if you beat the rap, the legal costs will be ruinous...and then the civil suits will finish taking your home and your kids' future...if you get after'em and take'em all out.

The gun is there to keep you alive. Your prmary goal is to survive. Stickin' around to see the fight to its conclusion is a good way to fail in that mission. So...go for it.

Me? I intend to shoot while I unass the area as fast as my geriatric old legs will carry me. I can probably do that without the need for a tactical/speed reload, even with an antiquated 7-shooter. I can probably do it with a single-action revolver. I carry a spare magazine...sometimes...but not because I really expect to need one. Because it comforts me to have a fully loaded gun.

 

[David E]

As far as counting rounds goes, I don't/won't do it. I seriously doubt anyone during a gunfight can accurately count their rounds, either. As already mentioned, many gunfight survivors are surprised to learn they fired twice as many shots as they thought they did.

Many modern guns (this leaves the 1911 out) hold more ammo than 7-9 rounds. Some hold as many as 20. Doing a reload immediately after the first 6 shots seems extra silly when armed with one.

And don't even get me started on "tactical" reloads !!!

 

[wally]

If a man can't feel the recoil of a .58 caliber rifled musket in the heat of the moment...he sure ain't gonna feel the subtle difference between a pistol that goes to battery and one that locks. In practice...sure. In a fight...not very likely.

Absolutely. The few people I know who have actually fired shots in anger, all said then never heard the gun go off (without hearing protection!) let alone notice recoil!

--wally.

 

[David E]

Absolutely. The few people I know who have actually fired shots in anger, all said then never heard the gun go off (without hearing protection!) let alone notice recoil!

How many counted their shots during the altercation? How many counted them accurately?

 

[wally]

How many counted their shots during the altercation? How many counted them accurately?

As far as I know, the only counting was after the fact -- of the remaining unfired rounds. In both instances the BG ran off, no running gun battle ensued, and it appeared everyone missed.

--wally.

 

[David E]

What?! You mean, they didn't know until after the altercation by counting the unfired rounds?? How odd !

 

[russ45]

I have a different slide stop issue. This condition started once in a while, and now happens all of the time. The slide stop works slightly out such that it impinges the magazine and jams the movement of the slide. To clear it, I must pull out the magazine, shove the slide stop back in, rack the slide, re-insert the empty magazine, then the slide will rack back and stop. Note that this is the original slide stop and magazines that I have used without a hitch for a year. I tried punching a small dimple where the plunger contacts the slide stop, but the stop is hard, and I don't think any thing like that is a permanent fix. Is the slide stop worn out? What is making the slide stop walk out of the frame like that?

 

[Guns and more]

if the slide stop or the slide is damaged by releasing the slide with the slide stop, something is wrong with the material or heat treatment of the parts.

Kahr recommends using the slide stop to reload. (Probably because the recoil spring is so darn stiff.)

Objectionable.
Extended Slide Stop
Squared or Hooked Trigger Guard

They must really hate H&K's

My H&K P-30 has both, the slide stop release is like butter and the trigger guard is hooked WITH serrations.
I love it!

 

[BlindJustice]

Eschaton

I have a S&W 1911. I didn't like the stock blued SLide Release/Stop. I
replaced it with a Wilson Combat Extended Slide Release/Stop in matte stainless steel which matches the gun. It extends rearward with milled
steps parrallel to the slide. IF I choose to release the slide via
my left thumb I simply have to rotate the thumb up and voila.

* The forward part of the LH grip has to be relieved for clearance in
order to have proper operation of this Slide Release/Stop.

* I choose to call it a SLide Release / Stop - that's what
WIlson COmbat calls it - go argue with them.

* I carry my 1911 in a Milt SParks #Axiom or #Mirage
the WC Extended SLide Release/Stop doesn't hang up on
anything nor - I had it fitted as well as the grip relieved by a
gunsmith.

It works for me.

Randall - PM me if you want a pic.

 

[Clarence]

Speakin' for myself...yer about 40 years too late, lad. For some...about 80 years.

I haven't been called a lad for 50 years. Thanks, I appreciate it.

 

[David E]

The slide stop works slightly out such that it impinges the magazine and jams the movement of the slide. I tried punching a small dimple where the plunger contacts the slide stop, but the stop is hard, and I don't think any thing like that is a permanent fix. Is the slide stop worn out? What is making the slide stop walk out of the frame like that?

Two fixes come to mind. One, file a groove where the plunger rides so it is free to go up and down, but not out. Two, machine the right side of the slide stop flush with the frame. This prevents your finger or whatever from inadvertantly pressing against it. I'd probably do both. (this latter step is almost essential for lefties)

 

[russ45]

Thanks, David E. I compared the slide stop to some pictures on some other threads and determined that the rounded part of my stop's inside top is worn flat such that it can walk out even with the gun in battery. The ones in the photos are rounded to match the cutout in the slide. My local gunsmith had a genuine Colt replacement part in stock so I'll know for sure after my local match tomorrow evening. Thanks again.

 

[David E]

Glad you found a genuine Colt part. That may well cure the "walking" problem, but making the right side flush with the frame still has much to be said for it.

 

[russ45]

Thanks again. I'll check that out, but it seems to be fine now. I did file the old slide stop down just a little in an attempt to get it to feed 200-grain round nose flat point revolver bullets. The bullet shape was such that it hit the slide stop. I have since abandoned that bullet in favor of semi wadcutters which feed very reliably and don't require any modification to the gun.