1911- The Harley-Davidson of handguns

[Keepmvng]

This is both wrong and misleading. Wrong because any UIT pistol will beat the trigger pull of an M1911 hands down in the semiauto category. Misleading because the single stage trigger design in a semiauto needs must engage the sear an order of magnitude longer than the second stage in a two-stage design.

UIT pistols are for shooting sports in the Olympic games and the World Championships. There is no restriction on the trigger weight of UIT Rapid fire pistols. Not practical in the real world.

 

[IndianaBoy]

I have lots of respect for the 1911, Mr. Zeleny's 210s, Glocks of all kinds, and particularly my CZs and Sigs.


But I have zero respect for this load of malarky:

kinna my point you need no wrench with a glock
and a stock glock might not be as accurate as a $2000 plus 1911 but i can consistently hit a coke can at 50+ yards

 

[Keepmvng]

I offered to shoot clean guns for accuracy and reliability, SIG P210 against M1911. 1911Tuner declined.

The P-210 had to hold a 2" group at 50 meters, and you can get a 1911 from Rock River Arms guaranteed to shot 1.5" groups at 50 yds. You can buy the RRA 1911 for less than half the price of what a P-210 went for 20 years ago.

"The P-210 has the notoriety of being one of the most expensive factory-built handguns in history, with new examples going for more than $4000 almost twenty years ago." - Guns & Ammo - December

 

[1911Tuner]

The P-210 has the notoriety of being one of the most expensive factory-built handguns in history, with new examples going for more than $4000 almost twenty years ago." - Guns & Ammo - December

For 4 grand, you can have a 1911 pistol built that'll cut a 10-shot bughole at 50 yards. The point of which is at least debateable in a pistol carried for defensive purposes. i.e If you can shoot a 3-inch group at 50 yards while somebody's shootin' at you...well.....yer a better man than I am, Gunga Din.

 

[Wesson Smith]

Wow. I am both a (proud) Harley and (multiple) 1911 owner. Sure am glad I couldn't care less when somebody on the 'net slams the hell out of something I've spent hard-earned cash on to make my life a little more enjoyable. If that were the case I'd 'prolly be sportin' a potato sack, and ridin' a tricycle.

Well...carry on!

 

[76shuvlinoff]

amen,

:banghead:

and for further clarification refer to post 130 for the duration of this thread.

 

[Dustinthewind]

I would agree that 1911's are the H-D of handguns. Both are top of the line quality American products. Glock on the other hand I would consider to be the Mo-ped of the motorcycle world, fun to ride but you don't tell your friends about it. And when you are done with them you just throw them away.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

I offered to shoot clean guns for accuracy and reliability, SIG P210 against M1911. 1911Tuner declined.

I didn't decline anything, Michael. I said that you couldn't have it all your way. If you ain't willin' to get your hands dirty, then it's probably best to keep'em clean. Offer still stands, by the way. Come wrestle with this ol' dog.

I once sought to take advantage of a Playboy model, who insisted on keeping her panties on throughout our encounter. She too said that I couldn't have it all my way. I submit that she declined my offer, notwithstanding any other performances that did take place. Your definitions might differ.

That is the part I care about.

See? Ya want it all your way. I was like that once...but I outgrew it pretty soon after I started school.

I am happy to acknowledge a want of wisdom accrued with age.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

The 1911 design has the shortest, most controllable trigger pull of any handgun.

This is both wrong and misleading. Wrong because any UIT pistol will beat the trigger pull of an M1911 hands down in the semiauto category. Misleading because the single stage trigger design in a semiauto needs must engage the sear an order of magnitude longer than the second stage in a two-stage design.

UIT pistols are for shooting sports in the Olympic games and the World Championships. There is no restriction on the trigger weight of UIT Rapid fire pistols. Not practical in the real world.

You said "of any handgun", not "of any handgun practical in the real world".

 

[TwitchALot]

I once sought to take advantage of a Playboy model, who insisted on keeping her panties on throughout our encounter. She too said that I couldn't have it all my way. I submit that she declined my offer, notwithstanding any other performances that did take place. Your definitions might differ.

I didn't get into all the details in that thread, so forgive me if my memory is incorrect, but how do you do a reliability test with a firearm without getting your hands dirty? A rest for accuracy testing (of the firearm) makes sense, but unless you expect your firearms to be reliable only under ideal conditions, how does it make sense to have a reliability test out of a rest?

 

[Michael Zeleny]

Michael,
If your pet were so sought after it would not be defunct, and would be the choice of all major competitors. Winning competitors have No Allegence to platforms. They simply wish to win. They use the platform they use becuause it works, and the last time I looked, I didn't see the 210 in any major competition.

Look in Switzerland and Sweden. Winning competitors use readily available and factory sponsored platforms.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

I once sought to take advantage of a Playboy model, who insisted on keeping her panties on throughout our encounter. She too said that I couldn't have it all my way. I submit that she declined my offer, notwithstanding any other performances that did take place. Your definitions might differ.

I didn't get into all the details in that thread, so forgive me if my memory is incorrect, but how do you do a reliability test with a firearm without getting your hands dirty? A rest for accuracy testing (of the firearm) makes sense, but unless you expect your firearms to be reliable only under ideal conditions, how does it make sense to have a reliability test out of a rest?

I am interested in accuracy first and foremost. Whenever the gun fails to cycle, it demonstrates a want of reliability. A score penalty can be applied for each failure.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

The P-210 has the notoriety of being one of the most expensive factory-built handguns in history, with new examples going for more than $4000 almost twenty years ago." - Guns & Ammo - December

For 4 grand, you can have a 1911 pistol built that'll cut a 10-shot bughole at 50 yards.

Dip it in mud and see how it fares against a GI rattletrap. Or, for that matter, against a Glock.

The point of which is at least debateable in a pistol carried for defensive purposes. i.e If you can shoot a 3-inch group at 50 yards while somebody's shootin' at you...well.....yer a better man than I am, Gunga Din.

The point of extra accuracy is to multiply your chances of hitting your target at any range. The distance between a CNS hit and a soft tissue wound is less than an inch. The difference can add up to life and death.

 

[TwitchALot]

I am interested in accuracy first and foremost. Whenever the gun fails to cycle, it demonstrates a want of reliability. A score penalty can be applied for each failure.

I'm no expert, but I think an accuracy tuned 1911 can probably outshoot the 210. Expensive, but probably doable.

But if I understand this right- you'd rather have a handgun that shoots .000000001 MOA at 200 yards that doesn't work than have a handgun that shoots 1000 MOA at 200 yards that does work?

Dip it in mud and see how it fares against a GI rattletrap. Or, for that matter, against a Glock.

Wait a minute. I thought you didn't want to do this because you are interested in "accuracy first and foremost." Which is it?

 

[Michael Zeleny]

The P-210 had to hold a 2" group at 50 meters, and you can get a 1911 from Rock River Arms guaranteed to shot 1.5" groups at 50 yds. You can buy the RRA 1911 for less than half the price of what a P-210 went for 20 years ago.

Choose a milspec M1911 for a fair comparison.

 

[Lonestar49]

I'm a buyer..

...

Indeed, 1911's are like the American Harley..

And my Sigs are like German Shepherds..

Can't have enough of either in my book..


Ls

 

[Dobe]

Look in Switzerland and Sweden. Winning competitors use readily available and factory sponsored platforms.

Why not look to where the most champion shooter live, and shoot, and have access to withing reason any firearm in the world.

I've noticed you have a tendancy to jump out of context to argue a point. Are you aware of this?

 

[Michael Zeleny]

Look in Switzerland and Sweden. Winning competitors use readily available and factory sponsored platforms.

Why not look to where the most champion shooter live, and shoot, and have access to withing reason any firearm in the world.

Champions of what? Military service competitions in the U.S. and Switzerland alike exclude foreign firearms. Everything else is beside the point in evaluating the performance of SIG P210 versus that of M1911.

I've noticed you have a tendancy to jump out of context to argue a point. Are you aware of this?

True enough. I deny your license to pick and choose the context to suit your position in the argument.

 

[Lonestar49]

WE all know.. lol

double taP

 

[Lonestar49]

WE all know.. lol

...

Ah come-on MZ,

We all know you are a ~ Debater ~ and as such, you're driven, no matter the twist and turns you do, to continue the Debate, your controlled debates will always continue, no matter, on your grounds, and in order to win the debate, no matter..

ya can't help yourself.. lol


Ls (laughing, the good kind)


Ps.. if possible, expect PC from me next week..

 

[Michael Zeleny]

I am interested in accuracy first and foremost. Whenever the gun fails to cycle, it demonstrates a want of reliability. A score penalty can be applied for each failure.

I'm no expert, but I think an accuracy tuned 1911 can probably outshoot the 210. Expensive, but probably doable.

The M1911 is much easier to tune than the P210. By the same token, it is much harder to make both accurate and reliable in the first place.

But if I understand this right- you'd rather have a handgun that shoots .000000001 MOA at 200 yards that doesn't work than have a handgun that shoots 1000 MOA at 200 yards that does work?

I would rather strike a balance between accuracy and reliability under normal conditions and resistance to extreme abuse. Having made a life choice to stay out of sand pits and mud baths, I am unmoved by "torture tests" rooted in filth.

Dip it in mud and see how it fares against a GI rattletrap. Or, for that matter, against a Glock.

Wait a minute. I thought you didn't want to do this because you are interested in "accuracy first and foremost." Which is it?

I am interested in applying a consistent standard. Touting tuned handguns and clamoring for torture tests of surplus specimens makes no sense in the same breath. Choose one or the other.

 

[Redhat]

When the P210 is tried in the fire like the 1911A1 then I'll listen to some of this talk, but I doubt that'll ever happen.

1911...rules!!!

 

[Pat-inCO]

http://www.snubnose.info/wordpress/reviews/is-the-1911-45-an-outdated-design/

 

[Keepmvng]

You said "of any handgun", not "of any handgun practical in the real world".

"because any UIT pistol will beat the trigger pull of an M1911" doesn't make it controllable.

I stand on my statement.

 

[TwitchALot]

I would rather strike a balance between accuracy and reliability under normal conditions and resistance to extreme abuse. Having made a life choice to stay out of sand pits and mud baths, I am unmoved by "torture tests" rooted in filth.

Fair enough, that’s your choice, but…

I am interested in applying a consistent standard. Touting tuned handguns and clamoring for torture tests of surplus specimens makes no sense in the same breath. Choose one or the other.

I will have to challenge this claim.

When told that for the same amount of money, you can get a more accurate 1911 than a 210 (and you are “interested accuracy first and foremost, are you not?) you say, “Dip it in mud and see how it fares.” And yet, you are unwilling to subject your gun to the same mud.

When told, that you can get a more accurate AND cheaper 1911 than a 210, you say, compare that to a 500 dollar Mil Spec 1911 that’s the fraction of the cost of a 210, for a “fair comparison.” Wonder why that 210 is so expensive, eh?

When told that your P210 couldn’t match the reliability of any of 1911Tuner’s 1911’s, you weren’t interested in subjecting your gun to tests because in your opinion, so long as it’s reliable under ideal range conditions, it’s good enough.

It seems to me that you are not interested in applying a consistent standard (cheap mass produced gun vs very expensive and accuracy-tuned handgun) nor are you interested in an actual accuracy test (asking to subject a more accurate 1911 to mud when you’re unwilling to subject your gun to the same mud).

And when challenged to do both, test accuracy and reliability (and by reliability I don’t mean range condition reliability), you refuse.

No wonder 1911Tuner won’t accept the ridiculous terms of your “challenge.” When he can use a more accurate gun than your 210, you’ll demand mud (while keeping your 210 clean, of course). When he can use a cheaper and more accurate gun than your 210, you’ll demand a far cheaper, standard, 1911 (to be “fair,” no less). When he can use a more reliable handgun than your 210, you’ll demand an accuracy test only. And when he can use a more balanced, reliable yet reasonably accurate gun than your 210, you’ll refuse.