1911 Thumb Safety - gun or Me?

[Chuck Warner]

I read this whole thread and can't get my head around running just the left side of an ambi set. Especially with a Springfield. It has been my not so limited experience that the current crop of cast and MIM Ambi safeties almost assuredly will come out if only the left side is used.

I install and remove a large number of them a year and have yet to see any brand snug enough to stay on its own. Most will almost assuredly have the left side walk out as the safety is manipulated, or pressure is applied during recoil, to the lever plate, with a low thumb hold.

Most factory safeties are poor quality enough to let the left side flex out enough to allow the plunger to start getting between the frame and plate.

All exactly as CAWALTER described. A Wilson or a custom gun may not, due to higher quality fit, but most others are a problem waiting to get worse.

Not trying to be controversial, but I always advise to repair or replace Immediately. I would not want to be stuck betwixt or between, and I have seen one bound up just due to lack of good fit.

CW

 

[1911Tuner]

Nobody suggested running only the left half of an ambi safety. Just that it can be done if the frame and the safety are within spec. With some of the cheap junk on the market these days, nothing would surprise me, but I've seen left sides only run just fine in a few guns.

Nor is the OP running half a safety. Both sides are installed. It's just that the right side has loosened in the tenon joint. That in itself shouldn't cause the left side to walk unless there are other issues.

 

[Chuck Warner]

I realize no one suggested as such. But you did state that you knew those who did, and did so for a while. I am merely cautioning against such for those who may contemplate it after reading this.
I have fit enough over the last 25 years to confidently state that until the recent barstock units were built, almost all prior units were almost universally susceptible to walking out, should the right side be loose or missing.

By design, maybe they shouldn't, but in practice they almost always will.

CW

 

[1911Tuner]

Okay...and I'll say it again. If the frame and the safety are both within spec...it shouldn't walk out even with the right side missing. The first one that I had experience with was a Mueshke unit nearly 10 years ago. The owner removed the right side and used a standard sear pin because it was skinnin' his knuckle. He'd been using the gun for several months and he finally got around ordering a proper safety for it, and brought it to me to install and fit for him.

If either one isn't correctly dimensioned, all bets are off.

I wasn't aware that anybody was makin' these things from machined barstock now. Expensive, no doubt.

 

[mbopp]

"Okay...and I'll say it again. If the frame and the safety are both within spec...it shouldn't walk out even with the right side missing."

I agree, but the left side IS walking if the right side loosens up.
It's a Springfield TRP. The S/N says it was made in 2007 but by all appearances it was somebody's safe queen. I don't think it was fired enough for the previous owner to find the problem.
I took it to the LGS where I bought it to have it shipped it back to Springfield but he wants to have a look at it first.

 

[1911Tuner]

mbopp...If the only thing that keeps the left side from walking out is a tight fit at the tenon...something else is wrong.

 

[mbopp]

I agree.
If I take the right side out, put a punch in its place, and push on it I can't get the left side to come out in either the "safe" or "fire" positions. But - if I move the left lever out of "safe" by just a fraction, maybe .030" or less, it'll come out. I don't think that's enough of a safety factor to prevent the safety from walking out by accident.
I'm waiting to hear what the LGS owner thinks, he's got a fair rep as a 1911 'smith. And I can always send it back to Springfield.

 

[Chuck Warner]

Okay...and I'll say it again. If the frame and the safety are both within spec...it shouldn't walk out even with the right side missing. The first one that I had experience with was a Mueshke unit nearly 10 years ago. The owner removed the right side and used a standard sear pin because it was skinnin' his knuckle. He'd been using the gun for several months and he finally got around ordering a proper safety for it, and brought it to me to install and fit for him.

If either one isn't correctly dimensioned, all bets are off.

I wasn't aware that anybody was makin' these things from machined barstock now. Expensive, no doubt.

There was really no need to say it again...as I agreed with you in principle.

Mbopp's last post rather clearly Illustrates the reality of what I said.

Best,
CW

 

[1911Tuner]

Onderstood.

mbopp seems to feel that the loose right side is causing the left side to walk...or at least allowing it to, but that isn't the problem. If it were, a standard safety would simply walk out because it has no other side. What keeps it from doing so is the way the slotted portion of the lug rides in the frame. If the slotted area is too wide...or the frame too narrow...or the shape of the hole allows it to escape, it can cause a problem like the one descirbed.

 

[mbopp]

1911Tuner's got it. If the halves stay together it's only masking the fact that the left side shouldn't walk at all. As you said, I should be able to remove the right side completely and not have the left side come out.
So if the safety is removed by putting it between "safe" and "fire", does that mean it should come out when it's half way between the two positions? Or is it shaded towards the "safe" position? Sorry, I'm a 1911 neophyte and don't have anything to compare it to.

 

[Chuck Warner]

Okay, Ill try once more. I agree with tuners analogy of proper parts.

In practice the majority aren't. Neither of us has seen the gun or the shooter,

shooter stated clearly that the loose right allowed the left to walk out.

That is a very common occurence.

Now Tuner says it can't happen?

Then this?

"So if the safety is removed by putting it between "safe" and "fire", does that mean it should come out when it's half way between the two positions? Or is it shaded towards the "safe" position? Sorry, I'm a 1911 neophyte and don't have anything to compare it to.
Today 09:31 AM "

Hmmm.

Mbopp, it shouldn't happen but it does. That was my point to you and Tuner.

I do this for a living and reality does seem to differ from theory all too often.

Best to you on your repair. I suspect Springfield will treat you right.

CW

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Chuck,

I have a problem with what you wrote:

"Most factory safeties are poor quality enough to let the left side flex out enough to allow the plunger to start getting between the frame and plate."

and

"I install and remove a large number of them a year and have yet to see any brand snug enough to stay on its own. Most will almost assuredly have the left side walk out as the safety is manipulated, or pressure is applied during recoil, to the lever plate, with a low thumb hold."

That seems to me to be saying you install out of spec parts or do not know how to tell good parts. "Snug" has no bearing on keeping the left side safety in place, whether it is the only safety or is part of an ambi safety. Are there no better parts that you have to put parts you know are bad into a customer's gun? And who makes those parts that flex all over the place? Or depend on "snugness" to stay in place?

I agree with Tuner. There is NO reason the left hand side of a ambi safety should work any differently than the normal safety, or come out any differently. The pin does not go all the way through, but if the grip safety is properly fitted, that should not be a problem.

(I once removed an ambi safety for a customer who wanted to keep the left side as his normal safety. I cut off the right side thumbpiece, then rounded and polished the stub. I then pinned it to the other side so the pieces couldn't come apart. It looked and worked just like the normal safety. AFAIK, it is still working fine.)

Jim

 

[Chuck Warner]

Well Jim I'll try and clarify for you. I agree with Tuner that it shouldn't happen.

BUT, the fact is that a large number of cast and MIM safeties are poor quality fit from the factory. While not an epidemic, its enough to pay attention to.
Having formerly owned a large retail store, specializing in 1911's, we carried Kimber, Springfield, Dan Wesson, Wilson, Ed Brown and Nighthawk among others.

By and large those with Ambi safeties were generally ok. Almost universally when changing out single sided safeties to ambies,(mostly Ed Brown and Kimber, some older Wilson and Swenson.) It was obvious in installation that the shafts were a loose fit ( about a .148-150 diameter if I recall correctly) They would generally tighten up and flex less with the Right side installed.
The point being, when you have a gun on the bench and you manipulate it enough fitting a safety, you can become very aware of how sloppy a fit some parts can be. And almost Universally, The cast or MIM safeties were sloppy. Some frame holes don't help either. Most of the problems I saw were related to running the safety without the right side, This due to the new grips they just got and were installing themselves,that were not relieved or the pins were rubbing the arm of the right side etc.

Generally the customer would bring the assembled gun, minus the right safety and in manipulation, it was obvious the fit could be better and sometimes you could get them to even come out or bind up just moving the safety through its travel.

Should it be that way? Nope. But it is, far too often.

Jim,
You quoting only part of what I said certainly gives what I said a different meaning.I said most. I only found this to be a problem in instances of the right side being missing or loose.
I find your backhanded insult as to the quality of parts I use rather beneath you.
However, My choice in parts I install in my custom guns, and replacing factory parts are two different things.

Theory and reality ARE two different things and no amount of insults or incomplete quotes will change that.

CW

 

[Jim K]

Well, the quotes were what you said. I didn't misquote you or take your remarks out of context. Perhaps you intended to qualify your comments, but that didn't come through.

If I were asked to install an ambi safety (and I did install them), and could not get one that fit properly and worked right, I would inform the customer of that fact and let him go elsewhere if he so chose. Any safety that will bend or flex enough to allow the safety plunger to fit behind it is no good, no matter what you say or meant to say, and would have to be made out of a tin can.

And no properly made safety (normal or left side of an ambi) should drift out; it is not held in by the plunger or by the fit of the shaft, it is held in by the frame, as anyone experienced with 1911's knows.

Jim

 

[Chuck Warner]

I am experienced, as are the group of smiths I communicate with. We have all been griping to the manufacturers for years about the poor quality of their Ambi's. Wilson finally came up with the billet ambi and more are to follow.

I said three times or more that I agreed about PROPER parts shouldn't be an Issue. The fact is the majority of Ambis are NOT.

Maybe I am not as eloquent as you and it takes an entire paragraph to convey my point, so taking one sentence out can change the inference.

The simple fact is my experience differs from yours while agreeing with you and you got insulting and petty....a shame as I generally learn something from people even when I disagree with them.

If you did this for a living as I do, or had any firsthand experience with my shop and staff you might be qualified to comment on what we do or don't do. As it stands, You don't, and I extended the benefit of the doubt to you as to your qualifications and experience, maybe I was wrong... after all, FLGR'S did NOT beget firing pin Blocks.
You are very well versed on a large assortment of firearms, history and trivia, I admire that. But I do modern 1911's for a living, the prints are not sacred and theory is far different than experience and reality
I sincerely wish you guys the best, but if the Emperor has no clothes, I don't need to be here for the nudie show.....

Regards to all..

CW

 

[Jim K]

I still have all my clothes on, thanks. I am very glad you are successful working on 1911's but I have worked on some also. I am no longer in business, and maybe in the "old days" ambi safeties were better made, but I didn't have all the problems that seem to be common today.

On the FLGR issue, you seem very positive about your views so I wonder if you have done any experiments. If not, surely you have some scrap 1911's around you can bang up in the interests of science. I found a couple when I experimented with the FLGR and its relationship to firing pin forward movement and reached the opposite conclusion.

Jim

 

[Chuck Warner]

While I agree with your theory and experiments,

".... but it is basically the FLGR that has brought about the firing pin locks and all their associated problems....

Jim"


...That statement by itself is not the same without understanding the rest of your posts on the subject matter. No?

I only used it to make a point. I agreed with you in principle and stated as such. The reality is different, most cast or mim safeties are crap these days. Quality has gone down, due to high demand I would presume. Thats how we call it in the shop, and we take great measures to bring parts and their operation up to spec. Points you neglected in insulting me and my business by being presumptious and assuming.

I have allowed myself to stray way off course, and to the OP I apologize.

I think enough has been said

CW

 

[Jim K]

One point, then I'm off this thread. Please don't misunderstand and I am not insulting you or questioning your expertise. But if those safeties are so bad, are you sure you can count on them to perform the job as safeties? The 1911 safety setup does not allow a lot of leeway in fitting the safety.

Jim

 

[CAWalter]

Simply, an ambi, any ambi, excellent quality to poor quality, must be fit so they can be flipped up, and down from either side, and never come apart or loosen until someone takes it apart. Never a problem, not hard to do.

CAW