1911 trigger pull weight?

[MCMXI]

This might be a dumb question but when a company such as Ed Brown states that they set up their 1911s with a trigger pull between 3.5lb and 4.5lb are they referring to a combined pull weight that includes the "first stage" and "second stage"? In the "first stage" the trigger is moving the disconnector against resistance from the middle leg of the sear spring whereas in the "second stage" the trigger moves the sear against one of the outside legs of the sear spring? I ask because I bought an Ed Brown sear jig and the instructions state that the trigger pull should never be less than 3lb. I used a stone to dress up the sear from one of my Kimbers and have about 1lb 13oz for the first stage and 2lb 8oz for the second stage. Combined that's 4lb 3oz. I can always bend the outside sear spring leg forward a little to increase the second stage pull.

 

[tuj]

most of the time if there is only one weight listed, it is the final break weight aka the combined stage weight.. You can get 1911 triggers safely as light as 2lbs or less and still pass all checks.

 

[9mmepiphany]

have about 1lb 13oz for the first stage and 2lb 8oz for the second stage. Combined that's 4lb 3oz.

Most folks, manufacturers and users, would call that a 2.5 lb trigger. You don't add the weights, the trigger pull weight is the weight you would apply at the point of sear release.

Generally wisdom is that a carry gun or one used for defensive purposes should be 4 lb to avoid a ND when under stress

 

[tuj]

9mmep: I think he's referring to the weight of the take up and then the *additional* weight for the second stage sear release, in which case he should be adding his numbers.

Most people would say a 4lb trigger is a trigger that has a final reading of 4lbs on the pull gauge when it breaks.

 

[9mmepiphany]

You could be correct.

I have to say, it never occurred to me that anyone out measure that weight needed to take up the slack in the trigger travel. I've only pulled on the trigger with the scale until it released and read whatever it said.

Maybe, I've just never felt a two stage trigger on a 1911...especially since I've gone to a rolling release

 

[tuj]

I think measuring each stage independently is more of a Euro thing. A lot of target guns have independently adjustable stage weight breaks, as does my AR Geissele trigger.

 

[JohnBT]

If you use a weight set it's a simple measurement - how much weight will the trigger lift before it releases.

www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-su...universal-trigger-weight-system-prod9710.aspx

I use a Lyman digital because it's a little more portable.

JT

 

[TonyDedo]

A 1911 doesn't really have a "two stage" trigger, not in the same sense as two stage rifle trigger.

Set the weight to whatever is comfortable for you, both in terms of weight and in terms of takeup/travel.

After a while, each person finds a "sweet spot" where they like their triggers to be. I like a #3.5 trigger with minimal travel, and I have most my handguns set there. My brother-in-law pushes the #2 mark. Then again, I've met plenty of people who are paranoid of light triggers and prefer #5-#6. It's all up to your preference, and what you feel comfortable with.

 

[hentown]

I never thought about measuring take-up trigger pull weight. That just doesn't make any sense to me. The trigger pull weight, to me, is the amount of force required to cause the firearm to fire. What does takeup have to do with that?

 

[MCMXI]

If you use a weight set it's a simple measurement - how much weight will the trigger lift before it releases.

That makes sense. I have a Lyman digital trigger pule gauge that allows me to zero the gauge after the "first stage" pull is complete. Clearly this isn't possible with the weight system. Ed Brown says a trigger should pick up a 3lb weight so obviously the weight has to overcome the first stage spring (middle leg) in addition to the second stage spring (outer leg).

What does takeup have to do with that?

It isn't take up ... you're physically moving the disconnector against resistance from the middle leg of the sear spring. At least that's what I see when I look at the internals and pull the trigger.

A 1911 doesn't really have a "two stage" trigger, not in the same sense as two stage rifle trigger.

With an AR two stage trigger the first stage pull separates the disconnector from the sear whereas on a 1911, what I'm calling the first stage moves the disonnector into contact with the sear. In both cases, the first stage pulls are essential to allowing the second stage pull to release the sear. This is different from simply taking up slack in the trigger.

Maybe it's incorrect to refer to the 1911 trigger as a two stage trigger but since both stages are essential to the sear releasing, why wouldn't you call it a two stage trigger? 1911Tuner ... any thoughts on this?

 

[Ankeny]

Generally wisdom is that a carry gun or one used for defensive purposes should be 4 lb to avoid a ND when under stress.

Yup, that's the accepted number and for good reason. When I do a trigger on one my carry guns, to get the feel I want as far as break, reset, etc., it usually ends up at 3 3/4 pounds. I see no need to go lighter on a carry/fun range gun. I never go less than .018 on the hammer hooks, and I leave 60 per cent of the primary engagement surface on the sear when I stone the relief. On the flip side, my IPSC Open Division blaster trigger is under 2 pounds.

FWIW, too light of a trigger pull can actually be counter productive if the shooter doesn't have the feel, control, and experience to use the trigger properly.

 

[Walkalong]

The needed slack (first stage) is there so the safety catch notch will work properly (IIRC). You can adjust the slack out, but then the safety catch will not work if the hammer slips from your thumb.

I do not consider it a two stage trigger. The first part is just taking up slack, and not moving the sear at all.

I guess it could be considered two stage, but the pull weight is what it takes to release the hammer, no matter what the two separate "stages" measure and add up to. Don't zero the Lyman after the slack is taken up.

All IMHO of course.

 

[Skylerbone]

A little tutorial that should keep things clear for you: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=10297/guntechdetail/2___lb__Trigger_Pull?source=CJ&ch=aff

Final weight will ultimately be determined by sear spring tension and little else. What determines how low you are able to go will be a combination of factors related to associated parts but the disco (center) leaf must be tensioned enough to resist trigger bounce and the sear (left) leaf must reliably return the sear.

I might also suggest, if this is not a rush job, returning the Ed Brown jig and ordering a Chuck Warner TR (True Radius) sear jig.

 

[MCMXI]

Skylerbone, thanks for that excellent article. I bought the Ed Brown sear jig a few months ago so it's here to stay but I'll check out the Chuck Warner jig. I'm preparing to ship my USPSA pistol (Kimber) to Dave Severns for his "Hard Hat" treatment so I wanted to get everything "perfect" before I box it up. Since I've replaced almost every part in that pistol with Ed Brown goodness, only the frame, slide and MSH are original, I would hate for Mr. Severns to snicker at my humble efforts.

The first part is just taking up slack, and not moving the sear at all.

I guess I don't consider moving the disconnector into contact with the sear as merely "taking up slack". I consider it an integral and necessary part of the trigger since without the disconnector the trigger won't work. Therefore I view the trigger as having two distinct stages. First, to move the disconnector into contact with the sear, and second, to move the sear. I shall have to research this further.

 

[rcmodel]

As JohnBT stated in post #7, trigger pull weight is officially measured for competition by lifting an NRA certified trigger weight set off the bench by the trigger.

Slack is not measured.
It is strictly a measurement of how much weight it takes to release the hammer.

3 1/2 pounds is NRA minimum weight for 1911's.

It is 2 1/2 pounds for all other centerfire guns.

1911 Hardball guns or Service Pistol used to be 4 pounds.

.22 pistol is 2 pounds.


As for those safe 2 pound 1911 triggers that don't allow the hammer to follow the slide I keep hearing about?
Doesn't happen on about 95% of the frames out there.

rc

 

[MCMXI]

Slack is not measured.
It is strictly a measurement of how much weight it takes to release the hammer.

But surely the weight has to overcome both the center sear spring leg (disconnector) and the left sear spring leg (sear) ... basically two springs in parallel. So the weight required to release the hammer is the weight required to move the disconnector plus the weight to move the sear. The trigger "slack" on all of my 1911s is sprung in that the triggers aren't free to flap around.

 

[rcmodel]

Yes it does.

But it is not measured separately for "official" pull weight.

The combined total weight it takes to drop the hammer is the weight of the trigger pull.

That was the OP's question, and that is the answer.

rc

 

[Skylerbone]

The article linked provides a guideline for adjusting each leaf that the final weight may be closer to safe, nothing more. Yes, pre travel will have the trigger stirrup pressing the disco paddle which is in turn resisted by the center leaf and as rcmodel stated is simply measured all total.

The purpose of measuring independently is to combine weight in proportion for a closer to safe (cannot be guaranteed) pull weight. Without a scale of some sort the actual spring adjustment is merely guesswork which 1858 is avoiding. (This we all three know, merely an explanation for any who stumble across this). I do also agree that many 1911s ought not venture near the 3 lb. mark but might also note that when comparing my last trigger (on an M&P) the Lyman read 4 lbs. whereas the smith's dead weight required a tad more to trip.

I wish you success sir in your endeavor for a safe, clean trigger.

 

[9mmepiphany]

So the weight required to release the hammer is the weight required to move the disconnector plus the weight to move the sear.

Just so I understand your reasoning, would you then consider the Glock's Safe Action trigger a three stage trigger...1) depressing the safety lever, 2) pushing the striker to it's full travel and 3) releasing the striker?

 

[MCMXI]

Just so I understand your reasoning, would you then consider the Glock's Safe Action trigger a three stage trigger...

No ... for the same reason that the Savage AccuTrigger is not a true two stage trigger. With the GLOCK trigger, moving the safety on the trigger has nothing to do directly with the sear. With the AccuTrigger, the safety on the trigger also has nothing directly to do with the sear during normal operation.

 

[9mmepiphany]

With the GLOCK trigger, moving the safety on the trigger has nothing to do directly with the sear.

That is why I asked, because earlier, you posted

I consider it an integral and necessary part of the trigger since without the disconnector the trigger won't work. Therefore I view the trigger as having two distinct stages. First, to move the disconnector into contact with the sear, and second, to move the sear.

Surely you see that without the safety being pressed, the trigger wouldn't work either...because without first pressing it, the trigger is blocked from contacting the striker (in place of the sear)

I gather then, that you do consider the movement of the trigger bar on a S&W M&P against the force of the return spring the first stage of a three stage trigger, since the trigger bar's movement does directly contact the sear. This takeup occurs prior to the beginning of the leverage applied to release the sear

 

[MCMXI]

Surely you see that without the safety being pressed, the trigger wouldn't work either...because without first pressing it, the trigger is blocked from contacting the striker (in place of the sear)

Of course, but surely you see that the trigger safety doesn't directly contact the sear like the disconnector in the 1911. I think we're talking apples and oranges.

I gather then, that you do consider the movement of the trigger bar on a S&W M&P against the force of the return spring the first stage of a three stage trigger, since the trigger bar's movement does directly contact the sear. This takeup occurs prior to the beginning of the leverage applied to release the sear

What's your definition of a two stage trigger?

 

[9mmepiphany]

What's your definition of a two stage trigger?

I don't have one, because I don't believe that handguns have two stage triggers.

That is what I'm trying to say. The trigger pull of handguns, certainly the 1911, isn't measured in stages. It is a single measurement of the weight required to be applied the the trigger to release the hammer from it's engagement with the sear

 

[MCMXI]

I don't have one, because I don't believe that handguns have two stage triggers.

OK ... duly noted. I don't share that opinion at this time but I'm always open to learning new things.

I got my answer re the trigger pull weight and now have a 3lb 8oz trigger that I'm happy with. Thanks for everyone's feedback.

 

[Walkalong]

I guess I don't consider moving the disconnector into contact with the sear as merely "taking up slack". I consider it an integral and necessary part of the trigger since without the disconnector the trigger won't work.

Yes, the trigger bow has to push against the disconnector, and the disconnector has to be pushed against the sear legs, but the pull weight is the weight that makes the sear break, releasing the hammer, after the slack has been taken up and we can move the sear to release the hammer.

Either way you look at it, or what you call it, the pull weight is what is registered just before the sear breaks.

I have always wondered why they rated the first and second part of a two stage rifle trigger, when the important weight to me was the release weight, but I guess some folks want more or less first stage weight to suit their needs. Target? Light first stage. Tactical? A heavier first stage for safety.