1911's overrated?

[badbadtz560]

Please don't start a flamewar or anything. This thought crossed my mind so I decided to ask.

Everybody's always talking about how awesome the 1911's are b/c they used it through two world wars and was issued for like.. ?70 years?

but I have to think.. in the world wars... when did our soldiers actually use a pistol in combat? My thought is... not often at all. It seems to me like the rifle would be the primary and almost only weapon used in most cases.

Of course.. I never did pay attention in history class...

Comments?

 

[Wopasaurus]

Pistols are only meant as a backup to the rifle...

"your pistol is only there to fight your way back to your rifle.. yadda yadda"

They are far inferior to rifles yes.... But... if I was in combat, I'd want the biggest round I could confidently manage.

 

[1 old 0311]

97 years ago it was the 'hot set up.' Today it is just old design that you must spend a LOT on cash to be semi-reliable.

 

[Geno]

1 old 0311 said:

97 years ago it was the 'hot set up.' Today it is just old design that you must spend a LOT on cash to be semi-reliable.

ROTFLABO! I wondered how long it would take.

 

[nosliw]

i do think they are overrated.

i do think everyone should own at least one.

 

[Quoheleth]

Today it is just old design that you must spend a LOT on cash to be semi-reliable.

Lessee...

Used, but NIB Springer GI 1911 - $300
Set of Lee carbide dies - $20
500 185gr LSWC bullets - $40
Primers - $3.50/100

Shoots great, no problems.

I had two FRTB yesterday, but I was trying a new load with new bullets and I had them a skosh too long.

When I went back to my 185grs, no problems.

Please note this is about as base-model 1911 as possible. It does two things, and two things well: shoots and shoots where I want it to shoot - even with those low-riding GI sights.

Not only did I not spend a pot-wad on the gun, I have ZERO dollars in upgrades.

Q

 

[RaspberrySurprise]

They only tend to be unreliable if you try and make a tricked out race gun outta one. This is not what they were meant for. My RIA 1911A1 works just dandy but it's also not all full of squeaky tight match bits either.

 

[marklbucla]

I'm willing to look past the initial unreliability. I've shot or owned CZs, Glocks, HKs, Sigs, High Powers, etc. and none of them come close to the comfort and of a 1911. Make it a 9mm 1911, and it's even better.

 

[usp_fan]

I've got to say that my springer mil-spec 1911 is very reliable, fits my hand better than any other Auto I own or have tried and required zero work. I have customized it lightly after confirming it was accurate and reliable.

My only complaint is capacity and weight, but I'm not willing to give up the grip size for more capacity, and I really like the recoil characteristics of the 1911 (which are related to the weight). So... Over rated? Maybe. Still great? I think so.

 

[sqlbullet]

No, and yes.

Comparing guns on the merit of the gun alone (not history, volume in market, accessories, price, etc), I like the Witness platform better, followed by the 2011 framed guns (STI/SVI). I think they both demonstrate the ability to up the capacity without a huge negative impact to grip size for the average man/woman.

However, when you consider the HUGE aftermarket for 1911 guns, and the fact they every pistolsmith has at least some experience with them, and the fact that modern guns ( even the cheap ones) run really well, they are hard to beat.

The reliability issues I hear again and again are interesting. The reviews I read of an STI and PT1911 in the most recent combat handguns indicated they ran very reliably. Same goes for most RIA.

Tighter guns need more break in. They also shoot with much more accuracy. Accuracy that many other platforms can't acheive consistently.

 

[col_tapiocca]

1911 are nice classic american gun to have fun with it.
But for combat use I guess a Glock will be the better choice.

I own both but I prefer my Swiss classic gun. (SIG P210)

 

[Lonestar49]

History, etched in stone, is what "last"

...

The 1911 is one of those designs before its time, and is truly timeless..

One of the best platforms for 45 ACP one can ever study, learn, and enjoy, for 50yrs, per owner, and pass on a legend. The SAO trigger, with today's palm grip safety, along with the thumb lock safety, for being quite safe for locked and cocked carry is an ongoing testament in itself..

All steel has its enduring features, proven over time, since the first ones rolled out, and some of the lighter ones, have their place as well, IF not an ongoing range shooter..

Most people/shooters, that have never tried one, when they do, their eyes light up.. as in, they now see The_Light..

Military specs is one beas. Tight, target/competition, types, are another beast.

It's only in-the-effort to tame the beast that allows one to understand, feel, sinse, how far ahead of its time the 1911 was, and still is, ageless.

Passed on from generation to generation. Few guns, made so long ago, carry such a_spirit with, and within, them. And it starts with the first grip of one, and goes on from there..

Ever on-going



Ls

 

[Lonestar49]

History, etched in stone, is what "last"

...

Double-tap

 

[elChupacabra!]

in the world wars... when did our soldiers actually use a pistol in combat? My thought is... not often at all.

My understanding is that, in the trenches of WWI and the tunnels of Vietnam, the 1911 was a fantastic weapon to have handy... maybe better than anything else - for its maneuverability, relatively powerful cartridge, and auto-loading capability. Would have been much better than a shovel or 1903 springfield with bayonette attached, in my opinion, at least.

Also, various Operators continue using the 1911 up to present day - guys who shoot people with them all the time. For me, it's the trigger that makes it hands down better than any other handgun I've ever shot - for offensive purposes, at least, and as long as you can carry 5 mags strapped to your chest and don't mind a 40oz hunk of steel riding on your hip / thigh / whatever.

There may be other good guns out there... but for use as a military sidearm, it really is fantastic. There's a reason the guys who run it, do.

 

[CWL]

You don't want to start a flamewar but you create a post titled "1911 overrated"?

Overrated compared to what? A M1 Garand? A Sherman tank? No, a 1911 isn't better than a tank...

If you don't know how one single firearm in the hands of a determined soldier can influence the lives of hundreds or even entire nations, look-up Alvin York and how he was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor.

 

[BlindJustice]

My father was a Radioman/Navigator on C46 Commando cargo aircraft
WWII, flying from India to China. The aircrew were issued only
1911s as part of their survival 'kit' in case of bail out.

R-

 

[BlindJustice]

My father was a Radioman/Navigator on C46 Commando cargo aircraft
WWII, flying from India to China. The aircrew were issued only
1911s as part of their survival 'kit' in case of bail out.

R-

 

[conan]

When you get a good one, I have felt nothing else like it! I once did not know, and thought to spend to much on one was silly, but I was wrong. When you get a good one and spend some time with it, there is nothing else like it!

 

[mljdeckard]

Let me first say, I carried MANY other sidearms extensively before I settled on a 1911. I don't see myself ever changing. (Other than combat service, in which I would STILL carry the 1911 if I were allowed to.) Ultimately, I shoot the single-action-only setup better than anything else. Anytime I ever carried a caliber OTHER than .45, I was wishing I had a .45. Other designs have come, but none have been more influential, and I doubt that any of the competitors will be as popular in 90 years as they are now. I have no problem with standard capacity. If you have to fire a pistol for more than 9 rounds without pausing, you are using the wrong weapon for the job anyway. If I reported to Iraq, and the armorer told me, "You're allowed a sidearm, but we're short M-9s, you can take a 60 year-old WWII 1911 if you want." I would GLADLY take it.

People tend to forget that ALL sidearms are backup to a rifle. In the military, you carry a sidearm if A: You have a rifle as your primary, or B: You are a person who is either unlikely to be fighting for his or her life, or surrounded by people who will protect you with rifles anyway. As a civilian, I still regard my pistol as something I use to fight my way back to a rifle, which I almost always have in my vehicle and home.

The 1911 has probably saved more soldiers' lives than any other model of handgun. Certainly more American soldiers' lives. Keep in mind that a LOT of things changed during the service life of the 1911. It was chosen as the primary weapon for horse soldiers. At that time, Infantry were the primary ground force. Then Armor became the decisive combat arm, if in a support role to the footsoldier. Then the Germans changed squad tactics to make the medium machine gun the center of tactics, with the rifle in support. By the time the 1911 was retired in 1986 (My unit in Germany still had them in 1992) we had placed a vast technological investment between a soldier actually needing to use the sidearm. It had become almost a technicality. "You're in a war zone, so I guess we have to give you SOMETHING." But the soldiers who actually used pistols in an offensive role (thinking mostly Marine Fleet Recon) never ditched the 1911 at all. They reconditioned the existing frames (which ceased production in 1945) and recently started using newer 1911 designs.

Find another pistol you can do as much user-level maintenence on. With a little know how and advice, you can build one completely from scratch and the Brownell's 1911 catalog. Only the Glock comes close for this. This also means, in the field, I can completely assemble one from two damaged ones if I need to.

I could go on, but I'm sure, since I started typing this, many others have also filled in many of the things I would say anyway.

 

[pbearperry]

I have a stock Colt 1911 70 series and it works without a hiccup.The only thing I have altered is the sights,and a new trigger adjustable for overtravel.

 

[gwnorth]

You read your history, and there were far more then just a few Medal of Honor recipients who's citation lists action with a 1911.

I'm not saying there are not equally capable modern pistols out there, but historically, the 1911 has more then earned it's reputation.

 

[theNoid]

I for one am not a GREAT BIG fan of 1911-type guns or AR-type guns. I will eventually own one of each as I do like them enough to own and play with. All of that being said they are extremely popular gun types and who am I to argue with that. I do think that maybe, just maybe THR could offer up seperate forum for them but if not, no biggie...life goes on.

Noidster

 

[Beagle-zebub]

As to how often the 1911 was used in combat, it seemed like 25% of Medal of Honor citations involved one in action, be it in the World Wars or Korea. One Marine citation from Korea involved a guy gunning down two or three NKs with his 1911 in one foxhole, then going to the next and doing the same, with the last one being one he clubbed to death with the pistol. Alvin York used one, a bunch of MOH guys in WWII did, and I'm pretty certain that somebody in "We Were Soldiers Once...And Young" did too. The show SHOOTOUT! has numerous instances of them being used, too, provided they are episodes covering covering Vietnam and before.

It seemed like they got WAAAY more use than the M9, though that could be entirely because of a decline in the the issuing of pistols and other factors that made them irrelevant. All the same, the 1911 would be much more practical in military combat, given the use of ball ammunition--I am all for 9mm, but we should be honest with ourselves about whether it is quite up to snuff in FMJ form.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

Not only over rated by American shooters, but also severely outdated.

 

[possum]

i love the 1911, and i don't think it is overrated at all, it gets the recognition that it should. i have no problem getting and shooting reliable 1911's. from the $325 to the $1000 they all work for me, sa kimber, ria etc.