1911's overrated?

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I carry a 5" steel 1911 nearly every day, without a spare mag, and I never feel under-gunned. I shot a G17 for my first time last week, and as I kept pulling the trigger and chewing out the bulls-eye I kept thinking, "When is this slide gonna lock back!" That may be a real advantage in a law enforcement or military situation, but as a civilian I doubt I will be in a drawn out gun fight. The way I see it, if 9 rounds of .45 ACP doesn't solve the problem, it's just my time. The 1911 is a great gun in a day of many great guns, and will continue to be. If you don't feel is is the best design to trust your life to, then don't. I'll take old slab sides any day.

-Polish
 
Actually, budget does have some to do with it. No Gov't entity can justify double the price without double the performance - which you won't get, and half the ammo, to boot. So, you buy the less expensive, just as combat accurate pistol with more ammo. It's not rocket science - and it's what the experts in DOD and most PD did decide. It's actually twenty years later, now, and time to acknowledge it.

BTW, they don't make the small block chevy 350 anymore. Old, inefficient technology.

When you are issued a pistol, other than MP ( I was ) - you don't get to fight to a long gun. Pistol is all you get. You need that ammo. Ask a military officer if he wants less ammo, in a heavier package, that takes more training and maintenance. Even Officers get that.

If a PD budget was the only qualifier, most cops would be carrying HiPoints or Keltecs.

I'm not saying the 1911 isn't a great classic. I'm saying it is just that - a great classic, but not best at a combat job. The 1911 is now an expensive pet, like the horse. Don't see them used much to get to work. Don't see many 1911's in duty holsters.

Show me a multilevel parking stable next to an office building. Glad I don't have that commute. :uhoh:
 
what good is more ammo when you have to expend 2 rounds for the same effect? if i recall correctly thats how double taps got started. seems to me the spec ops train to fire the 9mm double tap to make up for the lack of mass that impacting the target. so....how is the 15 rounds of the m9 any more effective then the 7 of the 1911 other than volume of fire? don't even say a word about head shots or shot placement because i highly doubt anyone that ISN'T desensitized to combat could stay cool and collected enough to fire a WELL AIMED shot while taking fire themselves. i know i couldn't.

oh and tirod...i see plenty of 1911's in duty holsters. i've worked several armed security jobs with the freedom to carry a side arm of choice. in 3 years i've seen 2 glocks and one xd carried by the other officers. all the rest were 1911's. then like somone else just stated: FBI, LAPD SWAT, MEU, and those are just naming a few.
 
a great classic, but not best at a combat job
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Again, maybe not for main-line forces, but for those guys at the "pointy end of the spear," they almost exclusively choose the 1911. So I would argue that it's not best in a conventional military role that would almost never see it actually used... but, according to the guys who DO choose to use it, really IS best at a true "combat" job.
 
I'd say the 1911 isn't over-rated.
Break-down is a pain but if that's worthy of complaint then the shooter cleaning the gun is the problem- not the gun's design.

The size of the gun is a problem for some but having small hands is no reason to complain about the gun. Instead of saying the gun isn't right it could be more accurate to say the gun isn't right for small-handed people.

Along with the size concerns are magazine capacity concerns... Fact is, many 1911s are carrying 10 rounds or more. When considering the affect those rounds have I'd much rather use 10 .45s than 15 9mm.

Basically, I feel like the 1911 is a great gun but I'm going to find out the truth of that when I take my new .45 out this weekend (S.A., custom parts galore!).
 
ah.. hate to pull more questions in to this thread. For those of you that say it's just as awesome and reliable as the other military weapons, why do you guys think very few military or police personnel use them nowadays? One thought of mine would be b/c it sux w/ a silencer?

And I would wager that you haven't ever shot a 1911.

Try one. Try several. I really didn't want to like them but once I tried them it was impossible to avoid.
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To answer your question, I have shot 1911s multiple times (9mm and .45acp). And I shot better accuracy-wise with it than any other gun that I used at that time. However, if I purchase a firearm, I want it to be the best gun that I can get. By that I mean: I would not buy a 1911 b/c it's a classic or b/c everybody else thinks it's sexy... I will buy it b/c it does what I need it to do, what I want it to do, when I want it to, and it better be the best at doing those things for me.
oh yes.. and at the cheapest price possible :D
 
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Elite forces are small groups that get to play with any weapon they want. Their endorsement of a M1911 means nothing for the Army/Navy/Air Force as a whole.

The Services have walked away from the M1911. All we are hearing here is how owners of M1911’s like their pistols. Civilian ownership satisfaction has nothing to do with military doctrine, military tactics or military procurement.

And how many new Berettas has the Army ordered recently? I heard it was a big number. And how many M1911's have the elite groups ordered? I bet it is a small number.

The M1911 was a great pistol in its day, but it is obsolete for a military sidearm. And if you notice, not many Cops are carrying the things either.
 
it is incredible how many seemingly intelligent and experienced pistol owners can make the most rediculous statements, and even in view of other shooters that will know better....
 
Is it over rated?

No. Absolutely not.

No one has asked what the military functions of a large-frame military pistol are in this day and age.

Until that question is asked, answered, and then compared to the characteristics of existing sidearms, this question is meaningless.
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In the organizations I have been in, the pistols are used by:

Sustained fire machine gunners as a back up weapon. (not the automatic riflemen though)

Medics, to defend themselves and their casualties (though OUR medics also had M4's / CAR's)

Commanders, because, well, they don't NEED to shoot lol! (they carry M4's though)

The last group of folks to wield the pistols are those involved in clearing problems where the pistol is more handy, ie climbing up ladders to clear landings / attics, tight stairwells etc. Usually the pistol is called forward though...

Aside from MP's in garrison duty, the use of a pistol is generally for a back up weapon outside of special mission units. Special mission units may get stuck using a pistol as their primary weapon depending on the duty/mission they get, (ie security details of VIP's etc), but even in special mission units, the pistol is a back up to the long gun. The logic being that it is faster to pull and fire a pistol than it is to possibly have to perform remedial action when you have a stoppage.

The 1911 has been the choice for MANY, many individuals in special mission units for years and years due to the .45 round, the sweet trigger, the reliability, and the accuracy potential.

...I prefer the G19. It's more weather resistant, abrasion resistant, and operator malfunction resistant. When you need it, and it's loaded, you put your finger on the trigger and pull. It can't get much simpler than that, which makes it a superior combat pistol.
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ALL very valid points that ARE considered by "those that be" when choosing a military side arm, or even a duty sidearm.

The VAST majority of military commanders I have had have considered a sidearm a DETRIMENT to an organization rather than an asset. Why? More time needed for training, more ammo, etc, etc. Special mission units don't have the training restrictions conventional units do, NOR the personnel issues. The points above would be used by those commanders to justify why the 1911 is NOT the sidearm they would want for the regular troops. It is a "specialist" tool.

The 1911 is so highly cherished by so many simply because NO other platform is as adaptable as is JMB's...

The platform is suited for, and can be made to EXCEL at, pretty much everything you would want a pistol to do.

Accuracy? Yes.
Gun games? Yes.
Self defense? Yes.
Combat? Absolutely.

Does it take more training? Sure. Will you have to tune it out of the box? Maybe. Once it's running though...

This, in my opinion, is why the 1911 is King, and will remain king until we start using photon lasers or some such...
 
1911

I don't think the 1911 is overrated, just some of the people that own them. For someone who doesn't want to start a "flame throwing contest" you picked the wrong subject, it's like saying Obama is pro gun and supports the Second Amendment.
 
Outdated? Obsolete? Yes, I think the argument can be made that this specific weapon has already seen its better days. Is it fun to shoot? Sure - so is driving a restored 1963 Chevy Corvette Split-Window.

But compared to today's weapons, in terms of capacity, reliability, and weight, yes, I think the 1911 platform has been surpassed. That's not to say it's still not a fun gun to shoot and tinker with. Just wouldn't be my first choice on the battlefield.
 
"Hokey religions and ancient 1911's are no match for a good Glock at your side, kid."
 
" Don't be too proud of this 1911 you have constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant, next to the power of the Glock."
 
"Your father's 1911. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a Glock; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age. For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times... before Glock."


;)
 
Fair enough - so which pistol is the best-designed, then, and why?
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I don't know that there is a best pistol design, to be honest with you. I happen to think that there are plenty of excellent pistol designs, the 1911 among them, to choose from.

"Best" is subjective anyway. There are plenty of people out there that flatly don't like the 1911. There are also plenty of people so blinded by the hype that they will refuse to acknowledge that there are other pistol designs that have been around a long, long time that are just as good, if not just as popular.

Hey, I own a 1911. I also own a Ruger P90 that I would trust any day of the week over it in a pinch. I also intend to buy a Glock soon. All are solid designs, none are better than the others. The only reason I prefer the Ruger is because over the course of almost 15 years, it has been nothing but reliable.
 
one of the biggest reasons the average street cop doesn't carry a 1911 is dept policy. all the local depts here will allow a pistol outside of the standard issue as long as it isn't single action only. thats mainly because of liability issues of some cop not knowing his weapon and firing it accidentally. not every cop is a marksmen. some shoot their duty weapon just enough to qualify and the rest of the time it's just another accessory on their belt. then there's the general public seeing a cocked pistol as too "intimidating".

now why would the militay place an order for a whole bunch of new 1911's when they have tons of new stockpiled beretta mags and 9mm ammo? so of course they are going to buy more m9's. they will continue to use m9's until they decide on a new .45 acp platform, which JUST MIGHT BE a new model 1911.
 
Did they ever use it?

YES, In WW1 it killed almost as many Germans as the springfield rifle. That was the last time a pistol was standard issue to all ground troops. There was only two reasons we got away from it. 1) Increase in accidental shooting in training. This was brougt on not by design fault but training. In the 70's and early 80's due to defence budget cuts both training times and proficiency requirements were cut to almost nill. The 1911 is NOT a novice weapon. Glocks and Sigs are designed for LEOs some of whom (not all, but a good many) are in reality poorly trained and give very little time to training.
2) The second reason was the change to the 9mm (more politicaly friendly) nato accepted round. No one in the Military from the top brass to the poor sucker forced to carry it wanted the M9.

Most importantly why do you think most special operations have gone back to it?

My unit MARSOF 1bn followed with all other MARSOF as well as MEU SOF Marines now carry a caspian slide on an old colt frame with a wilson combat barrel dawson rail adapter ect....

FBI HRT - Springfield 1911
Some US Army SF - Springfield 1911, Kimber, some others
LAPD SWAT - Kimber
Another Unit in USMC - Nighthawk Custom
ect ect ect

The Seal teams went back to it then left only because they issue suppressors more often than any other unit (becaues of mission specifics) and if the 1911 has one flaw its in that the barrel movement doesnt operate well with a heavy suppressor hanging on the end giving some jamming issues with extended use.


If you are a shooter of limited experience or some one who thinks they can buy a gun and and never practice a 1911 IS NOT THE GUN FOR YOU!!! Case in point. One of the basic factors when developing the basic Glock design was a study that showed over 50% of police officers in emergency situations attempted to depress the trigger at least once before remembering to deactivate the thumb safty on thier weapon hence Glock came out with the idea of a heavy (heavier) trigger pull and no exterior safty. Sig offers theres with the exterior safty but because of the fear that officers will carry it with the safty off many Agencies (Texas Rangers, NCIS, US State Departments MSD, Brittish SAS to name a few) get them in a double action only configuration, to up the trigger pull to 7.5-9lbs.


Then theres the issue of caliber. But this is already to long and thats a loger discussion than design. Let it sufice to say that some good friends of mine across the pond in the Brittish SAS had thier Cot 1911a1 taken away and replaced with sig p226 in 9mm they went from training on center mass shooting to shooting headshots and being required to double tap as a qualifying standard. That in what is probably (by far the most extensively) best pistol marksmanship trained unit in the world!

I have carried it in more than one AO and God willing will continue to carry one until something better comes along (Im not holding my breath). IT HAS ALWAYS BUT ROUNDS AND BADGUYS WHERE I WANT THEM. ON TARGET AND ON THE GROUND RESPECTIVLY! AND ISNT THAT THE POINT!!!! yes you can quote me on that.
 
The Mil-Spec 1911 is combat accurate, combat reliable, and (even with ball ammo) delivers combat proven knock-down power. IMO, it is the handgun equivalent of the much loved Ma Duce.
 
Yes and no

If you pure functionality at a reasonable price, get a Glock. If you want a timeless weapon that, in it's ultimate form, is extremely reliable and beautiful at the same time -- and you don't mind spending a lot of $$$ -- buy a top end 1911.

For me, I shoot Glocks Kimbers, and Wilson Combats. Low and mid-range 1911s seem pointless.
 
Why have I never seen anyone shooting a Glock in major competition? I'm sure someone must, aren't there factory teams?

JOhn
 
Well I dont think its overated its the only type of pistol I will carry concealed and the only reason I dont carry it in the field hunting with me is because I dont have a cheap enough one that I dont mind beating up. It definetly takes some extra training to be proficient with a 1911 and using hardball 45 ammo. The only time I can remember jamming up a 1911 is when I have made some light reloads or broken my wrist and as long as you spend some time practicing with it you should be able to make the weapon function flawlessly.
 
Not over rated in my opinion. I have several and find them to be accurate, reliable and just plain fun and comfortable to shoot.
 
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