1911tuner...what's the low down on bullet casting

[Stinkyshoe]

If you could briefly tell about it for 45acp I would greatly appreciate it. I am wondering for target practice purposes if cast bullets is the cheapest/easiest way to go. Do they have good balistics for HD? Is bullet casting dangerous? Is is hard on the barrel? Do you use 100% lead or some alloy? Where do you get lead from? Is there a cheap source of brass somewhere? What is your prefered bullet weight? Can one caster mold make 185, 200, 230 gr bullets,or is a caster for each one needed? What are the health hazards? How much money does it cost to make the first 1000 bullets? After that what is it per 1000? What is your favorite load? Have you used Unique powder at all? What are you thoughts on it? How do you keep from loosing brass?

I realize you are probably very busy, but I would appreciate comments you have time for. Everyones comments are very appreciated.
Ss

 

[1911Tuner]

Bullet Castin'

Howdy Stinkyshoe,

You've touched on a subject near and dear to my heart...and one that would fill up a thread and only scratch the surface. There's a forum
dedicated to bullet casting, and those guys are dead into the madness.
I'll find a link and post it later today. Lyman has a good little book available, and is a must for a beginner.

First, the cheapest route to take is to find a tire shop and ask about
their discarded wheelweights. Those are just about perfect as is for
good .45 ACP bullets. I like to add a little tin to the mix to make the
metal fill the mold better, but have used straight wheelweight alloy.
You can usually get a 5-gallon bucket for 10-12 dollars, and that will yield
2500-3,000 230-grain bullets. I normally add a half roll of 50/50 Dutch
Boy wire solder to a 10-pound pot of wheelweight alloy...or about
9.5 pounds to a half-pound of 50/50 solder. If you can find bar solder,
all the better. Stepping up to a 9:1 mix will produce a pretty close equivalent to Lyman #2 alloy, but is unnecessarily hard and expensive
for .45 plinkin' bullets. Lyman #2 is 90% lead...5% tin,and 5% antimony.
The homemade alloy above is about 91/5/4, and my economy mix cuts
the tin down to about 2.5%...which is good enough for any handgun
velocity that you want to load, short of 1800 fps.

Forget what you've heard about cast bullets having to be hard to prevent leading. Sometimes a very hard bullet will lead worse than a soft one in
low-pressure cartridges. My alloy produces virtually no leading at top-end
.357 magnum velocities, and actually leads worse in .45 ACP. I'll go into
more detail later on, if you want to know.

You can ges started for about 200 dollars...the most expensive piece of equipment being the sizer/lubricator. Lee makes a neat little set-up
that mounts on your loading press for about 12 bucks that is caliber
specific, but it's slow and doesn't lubricate the bullets. The sizer/lubricator
is the way to go if you want high-volume and intend to cast different
calibers. All that's needed is a different sizing die and slight adjustment.
If one caliber is your thing, and you don't mind the extra step for lubing the
bullets, the Lee set-up will work perfectly. The Lyman sizer/lubricator
press runs about 100 dollars, but is the only way to fly for high volume
production.

For volume casting, plinking/target bullets, I use a Lyman 10-pound production pot with bottom pour and a pair of 4-cavity gang molds. If
you want consistent bullets for accuracy, stick with a single-cavity mold.
I mold for rifle calibers with a single cavity gas check mold, and my high-velocity alloy is hardened by adding antimony and a full roll of 50/50
for an 88/5/7 alloy. With a gas check (extra step) in place, I've been able
to drive a 180-grain bullet to 25oo fps in a .308 rifle with no leading and
2-minute of angle groups. Careful experimentation can cut that group size down to 1-minute or better, but for practice, they're fine. I also use a
small pot and a dipper with single-cavity molds for less weight variation.
The alloy needs to be very hard in order to take the rifling without skidding.
Typically, the rifle bore is much easier to clean after shooting cast bullets
than with the same number of jacketed bullets fired, believe it or not.
Cast rifle bullets run me about 4 cents each, including gas checks and
lube, figured on 10 dollars for a 5-gallon bucket of wheelweights. Lately,
I've been getting wheelweights for free from my ex-wife's oldest boy.
His father-in-law works at a county truck maintenance garage, and he
gives the lad all the weights that he can carry in the trunk of his car.

If you use a bottom-pour pot, you'll need a separate pot for smelting the wheelweights. They tend to be dirty, and the contaminants will play havoc
with the pour spout on the pot. Melt, remove the metal clips, skim, add
a little paraffin wax to flux the metal, skim again, and make ingots to
go into the production pot. A muffin tin will make a good ingot mold.
3-4 bucks at a Dollar General Store. If you need to make ingots for
specific alloying that needs to be consistent, use the Lyman ingot mold
for about 15 dollars...but for general purpose ingots, the muffin tin will do.

When using the ingots, flux the mix often, even though the ingots have been cleaned and fluxed. Tin and antimony will begin to separate
from the lead at certain temperatures, and fluxing will take it back into
the lead. Candle wax will work, but it produces a lot of smoke, and it
will burn. I burn the smoke off by using a gas grill lighter to ignite it,
if it doesn't spontaneously ignite...which it usually does. The lighter
just ignites it sooner and cuts down on the smoke. There are smokeless
fluxes avaliable, but are fairly expensive. A matter of choice.

Yes, casting is dangerous. You're dealing with molten metal at 600-800
degrees. If a dime-sized dollop hits your hand, you'll wish you were somebody else for about 30 seconds. It doesn't burn...It feels like
somebody hit your hand with a sledge hammer, and it will go through
both layers of skin and char the fat layer before you can blink. I've seen
bone exposed after a molten lead accident.

Do NOT let even a minute amount of water or any liquid into the pot.
A bead of sweat dripping off the end of your nose will cause the metal to
literally explode in your face, and even that small amount of water will blow about a pound of hot lead out of the pot.

Lead poisoning is a hazard. Airborne lead in the casting area is easy to control with an open door on one side and a fan blowing past you toward the door. Don't eat, drink, or smoke after handling lead until you wash
up thoroughly. Casting out in the open is an option, but be careful of any
flying insects that may fall into the metal. They will produce much the same reaction as water as the moisture in their bodies violently turn into steam.
If a fly hits the metal, you have about a half-second to get out of the way.
If a drop of water hits it, you have virtually no time to duck. Use gloves,
a long-sleeve shirt and leather shoes that go under your pantlegs. Safety
goggles are also a smart move.

If you need any more specific information, let me know.

Luck to ya!
Tuner

 

[Jim Watson]

Tuner covered it very well.
Let me just add that casting bullets is a lot of work and I only do it for my .38-55 Winchester Single Shot for Black Powder Cartridge Rifle target shooting. I can buy commercial cast pistol bullets for about three cents a pop in club group purchases and would rather do that and save the labor.

If you are new to reloading I think you would do better to buy bullets until you were somewhat experienced in the loading before tooling up to cast.

I do not know a source for cheap .45 brass. Popularity of 9mm and .40 make those cheap and .45 harder to locate. I got my current supply from Southern Belle Brass.

If you are shooting on a range with room for it, spread a tarp to catch empties.

 

[1911Tuner]

Castin' Part 2

Jim made a good point. Unless you are a high-volume shooter, it may
be more cost-effective to buy cast bullets. 200 bucks will buy a lotta
bullets. That being said, after amortizing the cost of the equipment, I
can shoot .45 ACP for about 3.5 cents a round if I buy powder and primers in bulk. With the free wheelweights, that comes down to just under 3 cents a pop. I cast because I have a voracious shooting habit, and
began at the tender age of 12 with a mold that my father made. I
"owned" an old Ithaca 1911 that the old man gave me for my birthday
after we rebuilt it. Since surplus ball ammo was so expensive at about
a buck, seventy-five a box, he told me if I was gonna shoot that much,
I had to reload and make my own bullets. No tellin' how many bullets that I
threw from that single-cavity mold and a dipper pot.

Now, to answer some of the other questions:

The pot, sizer/lubricator, and any other accessories can be used for
all available calibers. Molds, sizer dies and top punches are caliber/bullet shape specific. Dies run about 15 dollars, I think, and molds vary from
maker to maker and on how many cavities they have.

I use a LOT of Unique powder. It's one of the best, general-purpose powders out there In spite of the fact that there are cleaner-burning powders available for the .45, there aren't many that are as versatile for
general use in all handgun calibers...with the possible exception of the
new Super Boomers. It's not at its best with light bullets in the .45, but
is perfect for duplicating true hardball-spec ammo. Non canister-grade
Unique has been used for factory hardball .45 and 9mm.

Before we get into a flame war about how much better Clays or 231 is,
I cut my teeth on Unique, and other Hercules powders in the mid-60s.
It's hard to teach an old dawg new tricks. I use it for all magnum revolver
calibers that don't require top velocities...and for those, I go to 2400.
Unique and 2400 are tops for .45 Colt, too.

I do use another Hercules/Alliant powder a lot for .45 when shooting
cast bullets. Red Dot is the sleeper of the bunch for cast bullets in the
225-235 grain range for 800 fps velocities. I can't get a jacketed 230-grain
bullet into the 850+ fps range with Red Dot without +p pressures, but
for general-purpose range work with 230 jacketed or cast, it's more economical than Unique. Unique also allows the use of 250 grain bullets
in .45 ACP at respectable velocities without +p pressures.

I made a pretty bold statement regarding leading and bullets being TOO hard. Jim knows, but if anybody else would like to get the skinny on that,
I'll be happy to explain.

Happy moldin'!

Tuner

 

[Jim K]

I can't overemphasize the danger of lead poisoning. A good friend died a couple of weeks ago of lead poisoning and complications. He had a small business casting bullets in his basement and never thought it was worth while to install a fan or work in a better ventilated area. My advice is to NOT use the basement. Most basements are by nature poorly ventilated and hard to install fans in. I suggest buying one of those pre-fab outbuildings, and putting in several fans, plus more windows.

I also recommend not handling lead bullets with the bare hands when reloading. Use some kind of tongs or wear gloves. The latex gloves are cheap and can be discarded after use. And wash the hands well even if wearing gloves. It might seem excessive caution, but last I knew they only issued lives one to a customer, and it is a good idea to make yours last a while.

Jim

 

[1911Tuner]

Lead Poisoning

Jim said:

I can't overemphasize the danger of lead poisoning. 2

Amen to that, brother. It sneaks up on ya, too. By the time you realize
somethin's outta kilter, it's too late. Wicked stuff. FWIW, I buy the latex
surgical gloves to use while I reload ammo with lead bullets. Good point
Jim, and thanks for bringin' it up.

Tuner

 

[stans]

I have also started wearing latex gloves when handling lead bullets.

 

[Stinkyshoe]

Thank you all very much for your replies.

Tuner: You are like a encyclopedia of information. Thanks for all the help!

Jim: I am sorry to hear about your friend. I hope to learn how do this safely to avoid as much potential danger as possible.

I forge knives out steel round stock at 1600 deg + and familiar with hot coal getting down gloves(I use gas now, I like it!), in hair and in my sandals(yes sometimes I am stupid and invincible ) but the thought of hot lead falling on skin scares me. That would be so nasty! That would be atleast twice as bad as a hot grease burn. Yikes! I think I might be best off like you both suggested buying lead bullets already made. I think they are about $45 per 1000 through Midway. So would you recommend where rubber gloves for reloading? I reloading some 308 and never thought about it. Maybe I need to start going that. I quickly learned the importance when forging of a good pair of boots, gloves, SAFETY GLASSES dagnabit!!!!!, and now a very expensive pair of didydium glasses.

A few reloading questions:
1)Do you weigh each charge in it balance scale? What is the best way to do this?
2)How much do you flare the throat of the 45 casing to get the bullet in? How much bullet lube is needed(and what for)
3)How many reloads can you get out of a piece of brass?
4)Can you crimp even though there isn't a recessed ring around a bullet? Is a crimp needed? I never crimped for a bolt gun? Is an auto different?
5)Do you recommend using a hand primer to prime? My press is a Hornady single and I have to handle each primer to put it in the primer attachment.
6) How close to max/min spec do case lengths need to be?
7) I had a problem when reloading 308. I would press the bullets in and try to tune the overall length to spec. Each time I lifted the handle and measured the bullet length, the tip of the spire point got a little more smooshed. Is it normal to "waste" a few rounds getting the length set so on the first attempt, it pushes the bullet to the right depth? Know what I mean?
8) How can I tell if I have too much/little head space? I mean, how do I know if I am seating the bullet to far/not enough?

Thanks again
Ss
P.s. Tuner, I am amazed that you can reload 45 for 4 cents a round!! When you say that you buy in "quantity" how many thousands of round components are we talking? Heck for 4 cents a round, you could practice almost as cheaply as with a 22. That is sweet!

 

[1911Tuner]

Reloading Questions

Whew! Lemme take it one at a time...

1)Do you weigh each charge in it balance scale? What is the best way to do this?

For pistol ammo, I throw powder charges with a Little Dandy (RCBS)
unless I load top-end magnum revolver charges...and even those can
usually be dropped with the LD system.
----------------------------------------
2)How much do you flare the throat of the 45 casing to get the bullet in? How much bullet lube is needed(and what for)

Generally just enough to let the bullet start without shaving lead. I bell cases intended for cast bullets a little more than for jacketed bullets.
----------------------------------------

3)How many reloads can you get out of a piece of brass?

It depends a lot on the brass. Some brands last longer than others.
I like PMC and Winchester White Box for best life. You'll find that the rims
usually get mashed out before the case mouth splits. When the rim grows,
you'll start to get failures to return to battery due to extractor tension
increasing on the larger diameter rims. On average, I can get about
20 loadings with either of those mentioned above.
-----------------------------------------


4)Can you crimp even though there isn't a recessed ring around a bullet?

Yep. Crimping without a cannelure is best done with a taper crimp die.
Used to be a separate operation, but nowadays, the taper crimp shoulder is in the seater die.

Is a crimp needed? I never crimped for a bolt gun? Is an auto different?

Absolutely. A good taper crimp makes the gun more feed reliable and reduces the chance of bullet setback in an autoloader. Revolver ammo
gets a standard roll crimp into the middle of the cannelure.
----------------------------

5)Do you recommend using a hand primer to prime? My press is a Hornady single and I have to handle each primer to put it in the primer attachment.

I like the RCBS priming press. It feeds primers that are pre-loaded into a drop tube, and gives much better "feel" when seating the primer than the
one on the loading press. Much less chance of contaminating the primers
with trace oil on your fingers, since you don't normally touch them.
--------------------------------

6) How close to max/min spec do case lengths need to be?
For general range use, .45 case length between .894 and .898 are fine.
Using lead bullets with a small shoulder on the bullet lets you seat the shoulder out a tiny bit, and the round headspaces tightly on that shoulder. If the shoulder is out too far, it won't let the slide go to battery.
Fine line between just enough and too much. For maximum accuracywith
jacketed bullets, you'll want to sort your cases and use the ones closest to .898 inch, or chamber-length spec...supposedly.
--------------------------------------

7) I had a problem when reloading 308. I would press the bullets in and try to tune the overall length to spec. Each time I lifted the handle and measured the bullet length, the tip of the spire point got a little more smooshed. Is it normal to "waste" a few rounds getting the length set so on the first attempt, it pushes the bullet to the right depth? Know what I mean?

It sounds like your expander plug was undersized or you were using the wrong seater plug for the bullet shape. Mike the plug, and
see how it relates to the bullet diameter. I like about .002-.003 inch below
bullet diameter for the best balance between seating pressure and bullet pull. (case grip on the bullet) If your pull is too light, get a Lee factory
crimp die and taper crimp lightly...More heavily for auto rifles.
---------------------------------------


) How can I tell if I have too much/little head space? I mean, how do I know if I am seating the bullet to far/not enough?

That's two questions. Easier one first.

Bullet seating depth for pistol is usually specified in newer loading manuals as Cartridge Overall length, or OAL. F'rinstance....45 hardball is 1.250
or 1.260 inches, depending on the manual. I like to split the difference.

Rifle OALs are specified too, but it's not written in stone. Often the best
accuracy can be obtained by seating the bullet out to just touch the lands,
or maybe .010 off of them. The limit is dictated by the length of the magazine. Seating the bullet to the middle of the cannelure is good
practice if the OAL isn't specified, but be aware that not all bullets have the
cannelure in the same location, even though they are the same style

Headspace is a different animal. It's the difference between the length of the case and the length from boltface to shoulder. If you load for a bolt rifle, you can "adjust" the headspace with brass that's been fired in the
rifle by adjusting your sizer die to size the neck without setting the
shoulder back. Easy to do if you use a blue felt-tip pen to color the
neck and shoulder. Size the neck until the die shoulder just kisses the
case neck/shoulder junction. Factory ammos is set to minumum dimensions, and will often produce a little headspace in off the rack
rifles, which is why you sometimes don't get the accuracy from factory ammo that you do with handloads. Another option is to get a die that
only sizes the neck. Unless you have a rifle capable of bench-rest class accuracy, the adjustment on the full-length sizer die will do just as well
in most cases.

My bulk buys consist of powder in 8-pound kegs, and usually 2 or 3 at a time. 105 dollars a keg with two or more. 108 if I buy a single. Primers in 5,000 count sleeves run about 72 dollars. I get the bullet lube from
Natchez for $3.25 a stick, and 10 sticks at a time doesn't get me a discount.
A stick will lube about 1,000 .45 bullest...1200 .357s. I like the Lyman
Black magic because it's good and it doesn't require a 20 dollar heating unit
under the press to get it to flow. Since I get wheelweights por gratis now...and have for several years...my ammo runs me somewhere in the 'hood of 3.2 cents a round. You can't shoot .22s much cheaper than that...Not good .22s anyway.

Hope this helsp...Good luck!

Tuner