Dave Smith
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OK, I read that chapter. Not much other than annotating extreme variations in MV depending on various factors other than barrel length.
2.125" Barrel .357 Reloads?
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OK, I read that chapter. Not much other than annotating extreme variations in MV depending on various factors other than barrel length.
Dave Smith
Member
I am concerned about pressure in working up to SD loads with Titegroup. I'm assuming that flattened primers are the first sign.
I had a 640 Pro earlier this year. I loaded 125 grain Remington Golden Sabers but came to prefer Barnes 140 gr. XPB.
For low-flash and blast, BE-86 worked well. I was able to meet my goal of 1050fps on the chrono with the 125 gr GS out of the 2.125" barrel. Max loads can go faster, but you don't need to overdrive the jacketed lead hollowpoint. If you do want significantly more fps then a slower powder is going to be better.
Longshot had a lot more flash and bang but the velocities were similar to BE-86 with the 125 gr bullets. It is better with heavier bullets.
I certainly got the most velocity with H110 / W296, and it was necessary to get the most out of any bullet, 125, 140 and 158 grain. I would get 1400fps with slightly less than max loads for the 140 gr. XPB. It might not meet your goals for low flash, but it's going to drive the heavier bullets for the greatest penetration. A good alternative is IMR4227 / H4227.
For target loads, I would look at HP-38 / W231 or BE-86, and for high-performance loads, H110 / W296 and consider IMR4227 / H4227 for a tamer performance load that will still easily outperform the faster burning W231 or BE-86. With the heavier bullets, Longshot seems to split the difference between the fast and slow powders.
For low-flash and blast, BE-86 worked well. I was able to meet my goal of 1050fps on the chrono with the 125 gr GS out of the 2.125" barrel. Max loads can go faster, but you don't need to overdrive the jacketed lead hollowpoint. If you do want significantly more fps then a slower powder is going to be better.
Longshot had a lot more flash and bang but the velocities were similar to BE-86 with the 125 gr bullets. It is better with heavier bullets.
I certainly got the most velocity with H110 / W296, and it was necessary to get the most out of any bullet, 125, 140 and 158 grain. I would get 1400fps with slightly less than max loads for the 140 gr. XPB. It might not meet your goals for low flash, but it's going to drive the heavier bullets for the greatest penetration. A good alternative is IMR4227 / H4227.
For target loads, I would look at HP-38 / W231 or BE-86, and for high-performance loads, H110 / W296 and consider IMR4227 / H4227 for a tamer performance load that will still easily outperform the faster burning W231 or BE-86. With the heavier bullets, Longshot seems to split the difference between the fast and slow powders.
Probably not. Flattened primers in a handgun have other causes and it's possible that a primer won't flatten from pressure until you've doubled the allowable pressure. The best way to avoid over-pressure is to set a conservative velocity goal for the powder you're using. If you need more velocity, use a different powder.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Titegroup is a super fast powder and not suitable for the .357 Magnum other than for light practice loads. Pressure is pressure and fast powders will generate pressures that excess limits well before you generate the velocities normally associated with magnum class cartridges.
Dave Smith
Member
New info after trying two different "light" loads.
I first tried 6.5 gr. of Titegroup with a 125 gr. JHP bullet. I noticed the primers were somewhat flattened, but the cases came out easily. Hodgdon recommends a minimum load of 6.8 gr.
Today, I tried 7.0 gr. of CFE Pistol. Way more muzzle flash, but no flattened primers. Cases came our easily. Hodgdon recommends a minimum of 6.9 gr. According to their info, the pressures with CFE Pistol are much lower than Titegroup.
I guess I'll stick with CFE Pistol and work my reloads up once I can go to a range where I can setup my Chrono.
I first tried 6.5 gr. of Titegroup with a 125 gr. JHP bullet. I noticed the primers were somewhat flattened, but the cases came out easily. Hodgdon recommends a minimum load of 6.8 gr.
Today, I tried 7.0 gr. of CFE Pistol. Way more muzzle flash, but no flattened primers. Cases came our easily. Hodgdon recommends a minimum of 6.9 gr. According to their info, the pressures with CFE Pistol are much lower than Titegroup.
I guess I'll stick with CFE Pistol and work my reloads up once I can go to a range where I can setup my Chrono.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
CFE Pistol is a better choice since it's a medium speed powder.
Dave Smith
Member
After reading the 2018 Burn Rate chart and my results, I am in agreement. The only thing missing for me is MV. I need to chrono some loads.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Why is the velocity so important?
Dave Smith
Member
It's not THAT important, but I'd want it faster than a spitball!
I don't even have a target in mind.
I don't even have a target in mind.
In general, the larger the powder charge to the velocity advertised, the larger the flash. There are a few exceptions.
I believe a couple of ball powders have anti flash additives.
I personally liked Universal for 357.
Dave Smith
Member
Universal has similar pressure levels as Titegroup for similar velocities (from a 10" bbl.). However, CFE Pistol has higher velocity at lower pressure - also from a 10" bbl.
Using the 2018 Burn Rate chart with Titegroup at #15, Universal at #32, and CFE Pistol at #44, you'd think that Universal would have more similar characteristics as CFE Pistol.
Using the 2018 Burn Rate chart with Titegroup at #15, Universal at #32, and CFE Pistol at #44, you'd think that Universal would have more similar characteristics as CFE Pistol.
I read this again and realized an error. In the 640, the XPB's were going 1200fps with H110. 1400 was for a different gun with a 5" barrel.
I haven't tried CFE Pistol. A small amount of a fast powder like Titegroup (I would choose HP-38) is cheap for low-velocity target loads, but you have a high risk of overpressure if you put too much powder in. With fast powders, I suggest choosing a load you can double-charge without exceeding pressure, but that won't result in a squib load. Like 3.2 grains (see the starting loads for .38 Special for Titegroup or HP-38). Starting loads for CFE Pistol are 4.8 grains, but they all max out under 7 grains. You can't afford a mistake with so little room for error.
It's more expensive, but I've come to overwhelmingly prefer the slow powders like H110. (H4227 and Lil' Gun are similar) They deliver the highest velocities and you can't overcharge .357 with them (won't fit). You still have to be vigilant for empty cases. Nothing is "fool proof," and the intention isn't to accommodate carelessness, but I've come to appreciate multiple fail-safes.
Dave Smith
Member
You're using H110 in a 2.125" bbl revolver and getting 1,200 fps? What weight bullet at what charge weight?
With 21.0gr (from the book) of H110, you must be getting quite a muzzle flash. That's three times the weight of some of the faster powders like CFE Pistol.
With 21.0gr (from the book) of H110, you must be getting quite a muzzle flash. That's three times the weight of some of the faster powders like CFE Pistol.
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140 gr. Barnes XPB. Barnes publishes their own load data for it, link on their front page. Check out Luckygunner ballistic tests using Federal, Barnes (Remington), and Buffalo Bore cartridges all with the Barne's bullets. They used a Kimber K6S with a 2" barrel, and with Barne's ammunition, they got 1169fps with the 140gr. Federal's loading was 1106fps. The others were with the 125 gr. bullet. The 1/8" more barrel on the 640 Pro will add some fps over a 2". I mean, you will see the difference on the chrono. Will it make any real difference? The 140's penetrate beyond the standards for personal defense, and the Federal's opened consistently even with a low of 1090 fps through denim in gel so the only thing more velocity (1200fps) is going to offer is earlier expansion and what some would consider "overpenetration."
I chrono'd the 140 gr. XPB out of the 640 Pro at 1200fps with 16.0 grains of H110. Barne's max for Win 296 (which is the same as H110) is 16.4 grains. You might see something different at different altitude, barometric pressure, temperature etc., but my results are consistent with the factory ammo and published tests mentioned.
I was also introduced to the idea of using a fast powder for complete combustion in a short barrel. That seems intuitive at first, but you will also hear people say that the same powder that gives them the highest velocity in a long barrel, also gives them the highest velocity in a short barrel. I can appreciate that velocity is not necessarily the ultimate goal, especially when using a short-barreled revolver. On the other hand, if you're wanting to shoot a light-recoil, low-flash load, .38 Specials will do that, and they'll eject more positively with a short ejector rod. So also will the 9mm in a revolver. The .357, on the other hand, gives you more velocity, but only when you're using enough of the magnum powders to realize it.
I don't really see the muzzle flash during the day, but I'm sure it would show on camera. Does it flash at night? Sure, and so would firing anything that's very substantial out of the 2.125" barrel. If flash is unacceptable, rethink the choice of snubnose revolver. But there's no fault in dialing some of the flash out. With the XPB's, you could drop more than 100 fps from max loads and still have better penetration and expansion than you'll see out of any full-size 9mm. Alternatively, you could shoot Lehigh's non-expanding bullets at any velocity from the equivalent of 38+P through 9mm and probably have a load as effective as anything marketed for personal defense. Those lighter loads could be done with powders besides H110. For lower flash, try H4227. For lower flash and lower recoil, try Longshot, CFE Pistol, or Titegroup (in descending order of flash and recoil), but if you're driving hollow-points, you'd want to have some velocity goal for expansion and penetration based on what bullet you're using.
I chrono'd the 140 gr. XPB out of the 640 Pro at 1200fps with 16.0 grains of H110. Barne's max for Win 296 (which is the same as H110) is 16.4 grains. You might see something different at different altitude, barometric pressure, temperature etc., but my results are consistent with the factory ammo and published tests mentioned.
I was also introduced to the idea of using a fast powder for complete combustion in a short barrel. That seems intuitive at first, but you will also hear people say that the same powder that gives them the highest velocity in a long barrel, also gives them the highest velocity in a short barrel. I can appreciate that velocity is not necessarily the ultimate goal, especially when using a short-barreled revolver. On the other hand, if you're wanting to shoot a light-recoil, low-flash load, .38 Specials will do that, and they'll eject more positively with a short ejector rod. So also will the 9mm in a revolver. The .357, on the other hand, gives you more velocity, but only when you're using enough of the magnum powders to realize it.
I don't really see the muzzle flash during the day, but I'm sure it would show on camera. Does it flash at night? Sure, and so would firing anything that's very substantial out of the 2.125" barrel. If flash is unacceptable, rethink the choice of snubnose revolver. But there's no fault in dialing some of the flash out. With the XPB's, you could drop more than 100 fps from max loads and still have better penetration and expansion than you'll see out of any full-size 9mm. Alternatively, you could shoot Lehigh's non-expanding bullets at any velocity from the equivalent of 38+P through 9mm and probably have a load as effective as anything marketed for personal defense. Those lighter loads could be done with powders besides H110. For lower flash, try H4227. For lower flash and lower recoil, try Longshot, CFE Pistol, or Titegroup (in descending order of flash and recoil), but if you're driving hollow-points, you'd want to have some velocity goal for expansion and penetration based on what bullet you're using.
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