38 Special LSWC data question

[Shrinkmd]

I was perusing the Hornady and Lyman manuals again, as well as collecting from online wisdom. Interestingly, for 158 gr LSWC Lyman says 3.4 gr Bullseye is max load, wheras Hornady says 3.7 gr is max.

Looking over at http://www.handloads.org/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=38%20Special%20%20P&Weight=158&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source= someone posted a max load of 3.8 gr Bullseye for a 38+P, which is similar to Hornady's load data at the top end (although they do not note in their book that this is a +P load)

So, for shooting in a modern 38, or actually in a .357 revolver, would people feel comfortable working up to Hornady's max of 3.7 gr Bullseye?

Also, for recreating a +P 125 gr JHP load, Alliant lists Bullseye 4.8 gr at 1,021 and Power Pistol 6.8 gr at 1,082. Assuming I work up safely, would the Power Pistol load (with Montana Gold 125 gr JHP) approximate the feel of the Double Tap 38+P? He claims 1,100 out of a snubbie barrel.

Thanks!

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't know which Lyman you have, my latest is the Pistol & Revolver 2nd Edition of 1994 which shows substantially heavier loads with cast bullets from 155-168 grains.

Any road, Lyman and Hornady were not using the same bullet, barrel, or other component and their loads cannot be compared directly.

I would not mind using any reputable source's top .38 Special +P load in a .357 revolver.
I would not mind using a top .38 Special standard pressure load in a modern .38 revolver.

 

[Galil5.56]

I really like Power Pistol for both 158 LSWC's and 125 JHP's loaded to near +P in .38 Special. In my 3" S&W M60, 5.8 gr of PP/158 LSWC/WW SPP gets an avg of just over 900 fps, 125 Hornady XTP HP/6.5 gr PP/WW SPP goes 969 fps.

Can't say how the feel is compared to factory ammo; like almost all my guns they have never seen factory. Both loads are accurate, but with a good amount of blast if that is a concern and very clean. Both loads are sub +P max going by the most recent Alliant guide.

 

[rcmodel]

38 Special LSWC data question Interestingly, Lyman says 3.4 gr Bullseye is max load, wheras Hornady says 3.7 gr is max.

What bullet weight are you asking about?

Alliant 2002, prior to ATK, said 3.6 Bullseye was standard pressure with a 158 LSWC. (15,500)
3.8 was +P with the same 158 grain bullet. (17,200)

Moving to a .357 Mag case & gun, they show 6.5 grains. (33,900)

If you are asking about a 125 grain LSWC, I'd say 4.6 in .38 Spl and 8.0 in .357 would be max.

rc

 

[kludge]

I've used 3.3-3.4 gr Bullseye as the starting load for a 158gr LSWC. I use this load in my Model 19 and it's very accurate.

I use 4.2-4.3 gr of Bulleye under a 125gr SJHP.

Alliant now lists 3.5gr as max load for a 158gr LSWC, but since all my "38"s are .357's I don't worry about it.

 

[Shrinkmd]

Alliant 2002, prior to ATK, said 3.6 Bullseye was standard pressure with a 158 LSWC. (15,500)

Alliant now lists 3.5gr as max load for a 158gr LSWC

But they also list the same bullet in 38+P up to 3.9 gr Bullseye. So is Hornady's 3.7 max conservative?

And what happened in 2002? What is ATK?

Did they suddenly discover they were using too much powder, or have all load books become more conservative?

Obviously I need to get a chronograph.

Of course, that Power Pistol load of 6gr to get just over 1,000 could be interesting. Maybe I will start out at 5.4 gr of Power Pistol and make up something a little stronger than the 3 or 3.1 Bullseye batch I made up the other day. I can't wait to get the range!

 

[oneounceload]

ATK bought out many companies in the gun-related business - Federal, CCI, Alliant powder, Uncle Mike's, etc

 

[jfh]

Since I am not a Bullseye user, I will refrain from specific charge recommendations--but I will make a couple of observations, Shrinkmd.

1. Over the years, but particularly in (nominally) the last decade, charges in recipes have gotten more conservative. There's a great amount of discussion every now and then about the reasons for this. Inarguably, current data may well be measured more precisely, and in more standardized equipment. It is also inarguable, IMO, that as corporate liability issues have become more of an issue, the manufacturers are generating even more pressure to reduce recipes.

2. ATK is the parent company of a number of (reloading component) companies--and I believe they bought up Alliant in 2002.

3. Another factor here is one that may be IMPLIED in some recipes. For example, because Bullseye is the honored long-term favorite of the bullseye-shooting crowd, some recipes for it are the time-honored ones--e.g., the 148-gr. DEWC softball loads--and the max recommended in those recipes may well not conform to the "max pressure" recipes of, for example, a 158-gr. LSWC-HP load.

4. Keep in mind that, although there is some standardization on bullet weights and types, there can be big differences in the hardness and in where the crimping groove is. So, a given 'max' recipe can vary by bullet manufacturer.

I don't happen to shoot 125-gr. bullets much, but I have worked with Power Pistol in the upper-end 38+P-to-38CIP pressure ranges with 135-140 gr. lead bullets and with the GDSB 135-gr JHP. It works well under those specifications--so I suggest you try some Power Pistol workups as well.

If you are serious about your load development work, a chronograph is useful. Also useful is a serious attempt to weigh subjective criteria, such as felt recoil. That is, if you are trying to work up a SD practice round that matches the Double Tap 38+P round, then I suggest you try several different powders and see which one "feels" most like the DT round.

Several of us did that about 18-24 months ago with the Speer 135-gr 38+P GDSB round, and it has been a worthwhile endeavor. Once you figure out the recipe that feels "most like" the DT round (ignore what velocity you actually get), then you can tweak the recipe (down, probably), for training purposes.

Personally, my favorite 38 Special powder is Ramshot's True Blue, but that's another discussion.

Jim H.

 

[Steve C]

So, for shooting in a modern 38, or actually in a .357 revolver, would people feel comfortable working up to Hornady's max of 3.7 gr Bullseye?

Personally I halve no trepidation in using any 38 spl data, +P or not, when shooting rounds in a .357 mag revolver since the .357 mag operates at almost 2x the pressure of the .38 spl. Bullseye loads for the.357 mag w/ 158gr lead bullets start at just over 4.0grs which yield modest target velocity loads and top out at around 6.9grs for full power magnum pressure loads thus yielding a big safety margin.

Also, for recreating a +P 125 gr JHP load, Alliant lists Bullseye 4.8 gr at 1,021 and Power Pistol 6.8 gr at 1,082. Assuming I work up safely, would the Power Pistol load (with Montana Gold 125 gr JHP) approximate the feel of the Double Tap 38+P? He claims 1,100 out of a snubbie barrel.

When Alliant listed pressure data with their loads the 125gr jhp +P load using 4.8 grs of Bullseye was listed at 17,000 psi as was 6.3grs of PP. My SAAMI pressure data says 17,000 psi is maximum for standard pressure .38 spl and 18,500 is maximum for +P. As you can see the powder companies and loading manuals don't run their loads to maximum allowable pressures. The reason they do this is that reloaders have the habit of mixing different components than what they use so they want to leave some room for safety. I've ran a Remington 125gr JHP on top of 6.3grs of Power Pistol over the Chrono from a 4-3/8" barreled Ruger Black Hawk and it was traveling at 1,080 fps so snub nose velocity would be expected at sub 1000 fps. With 6.8grs of PP you may get Double taps velocity if you happen on the right mix of case and primer along with your Montana bullets.

Again, since you are shooting from a .357 mag I wouldn't worry about doing any work up, after all what do you expect? You certainly will not see any pressure signs, unless you mix up your Bullseye and Power Pistol and run 6.8grs of BE. The only reason to "work up" .38 spl loads is to find the most accurate, looking for velocity you will need a chrono. If It was me, I'd just load using magnum cases and start level magnum loads as they should give you Dobule Taps velocity or better out of you snub.

 

[Shrinkmd]

Thanks for all the excellent replies and advice. In the same way that I am very happy I learned what I was doing on the single stage before moving on to my Hornady LNL AP, it looks like putting some time in on 38 special loads is a great place to start getting more comfortable with pistol reloading. I like that margin of error!

I made up a batch of 3.5 gr Bullseye with the Dardas 158 gr LSWC tonight with Federal SP primer in mixed cases. Hopefully I will get out to the range this week and compare. I would like to make up my first batch or so of 357 as well with the JHP's but I might not have time. A project for next time.

 

[rcmodel]

What is ATK?
Did they suddenly discover they were using too much powder, or have all load books become more conservative?

ATK is the huge conglomerate that bought out Alliant.
And also Speer, CCI, Champion traps and targets, Federal, Fusion, and Estate Cartridge, Gunslick and Outers, Shooters Ridge, Ram-Line, RCBS, Weaver, and Eagle Industries.

Since then, Alliant only publishes data using Speer jacketed bullets on it's website and published reloading manual.

If you want Alliant reloading data for lead bullets, you have to go to their older published data.

rc

 

[Clarence]

I don't understand why anyone would want to shoot more than 2.7 grains of Bullseye in a .38 Special.

I would suggest if you want more velocity use a slower powder.

 

[rcmodel]

If you wanted to replicate the standard 158 grain lead bullet @ 825 FPS factory load, you would use 3.5 grains Bullseye.
That was the .38 Spl factory load powder & charge for at least 75 years or so.

Slower powder is not called for or needed.

The 2.7 Bullseye load with a 148 grain WC was the farctoy load for that target bullet.

rc

 

[243winxb]

3.3 gr of Bullseye is maximum at times, it depends on the components used when loading a 158gr lswc. Powder-Start low , work up.

 

[rcmodel]

But these are kinder gentler days we are in then the first 75 years of .38 Specials.

3.5 & a 158 LRN bullet is the Factory Dup load.

rc