2 Men Shoot Each Other with Tasers in "boneheaded" incident

[shdwfx]

Apparently, both guys shot each other with a taser, and one at least indicated with body language he would draw a gun.

I take four things away from this:

1) Definite unnecessary escalation on the part of at least one party - probably both
2) Don't talk to the press about a pending legal incident
3) It's good that both men had less-than-lethal options
4) It's unclear who shot first, but the other clearly was not incapacitated by a taser hit to the point he could not return fire.

Monday , May 19, 2008

AP

BOULDER, Colo. —
It wasn't exactly pistols at 30 paces, but police say a security company supervisor and a restaurateur shot each other with Tasers in a "bonehead" confrontation over parking.

Officers said neither man needed medical attention after the Saturday confrontation, but Harvey Epstein, co-owner of Mamacitas restaurant, was arrested on suspicion of felony menacing and using a stun gun.

A police report said Epstein and Casey M. Dane, a supervisor for Colorado Security Services Inc., were arguing over a metal boot that one of Dane's guards had clamped on a wheel of a van parked behind Mamacitas.

Dane told police he was afraid Epstein was going to hit him with a 2-foot-long pair of bolt cutters. Epstein told police he had only tried to remove the boot with the bolt cutters and hadn't threatened anyone with them.

Epstein told police Dane put his hand on a holstered pistol and threatened to shoot him. Dane told The Associated Press by telephone that he did put his hand on the holstered pistol but never threatened to shoot Epstein.

Both men drew Tasers.

"They shot each other," Police Sgt. Pat Wyton told the Camera newspaper. "It was just kind of a bonehead deal."

The guard claimed the van, owned by a Mamacitas employee, was on property he was hired to patrol. The van owner denied that.

Epstein, 36, told the AP in a phone interview Sunday he took out his Taser only after Dane pointed his at him and his mother, who was also outside. Epstein also said Dane repeatedly told him he was a police officer and that failing to comply with his orders was a federal offense, allegations that Dane denies.

 

[sacp81170a]

4) It's unclear who shot first, but the other clearly was not incapacitated by a taser hit to the point he could not return fire.

Since the LE version has a cycle time of 5 seconds and the civilian version 15 seconds, it could be that the sequence was: BH (BoneHead) #1 shoots BH #2 with Taser. After Taser cycle is over, BH #2 returns the favor. Given the limited set of facts presented, I don't think you can say anything about the incapacitation capability of the Taser. I do know from personal experience that after the Taser shuts off, you're perfectly fine and capable of movement. I'd probably be mad enough to Taser the other guy right back, too.

I agree that it was a bonehead situation.

 

[shdwfx]

Good point on the cycle times.

Still, it raises questions about the effectiveness of tasers if it is the only tool in your bag. It seems fundamentally incapable of neutralizing a threat and keeping it neutral just by itself.

A police officer using a taser to subdue a person has options (backup, cuffs, hand-to-hand combat training, gun). An individual relying solely on a taser for self defense could be extremely short handed once the lightning ride is over, especially if they are partially incapacitated and can not flee.

 

[Diggers]

Things like that make me smile.

I would have loved to have watched the expression of the police on scene when they first heard what happened.

 

[jgo296]

tasers arent 100% effective some people can still function
some program (wildest videos maybe) a large assailant is tasered twitches a little but brushes the contacts off he did this several times

 

[ants]

I wonder if these were real Tasers, or just hand held stun guns.

These days the press is using Taser to refer to all electroshock weapons, the way we use Kleenex for tissues, or jeep for small 4WD passenger vehicles, or western novelists use Colt 45 for a single action revolver.

These are the same writers who use 'AK-47 assault weapon' for every autoloading rifle, and 'weapons cache' for every gun collection.

 

[ZeSpectre]

I remember posting the question a while back...
"If a true stun gun were developed and became commonly available what would happen?"

The consensus developed after a while that hotheaded individuals would eventually create the game of "stunner duel" followed by a rousing game of "who wakes up first and stuns the other person again".

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

"If a true stun gun were developed and became commonly available what would happen?"

The streets will run red with blood!

or in this case

The street will run white with electricity!

 

[sacp81170a]

Still, it raises questions about the effectiveness of tasers if it is the only tool in your bag.

That's true. The LE version is meant to incapacitate a violent subject long enough to get them cuffed. You can always pull the trigger again. The record so far for Taser "hits" before the person was subdued (cuffed) is 7, if IIRC. The civilian version runs for 15 seconds, and if you pull the trigger twice it goes for 30 seconds. Taser's suggestion is that you lay the Taser on the ground and use that time to get away. I have a couple of problems with that: 1) no more weapon should you need it immediately, and 2) you just donated your Taser to the BG. Taser says they'll replace any one of their units used for personal defense in this fashion for free, but you've still got a violent person out there who now has a Taser he or she can use to subdue a victim. Not so good. Your point about relying on a Taser as the only tool in your bag is well taken. Still, if the choice is between an imperfect tool and no tool at all, take what you can get.

tasers arent 100% effective some people can still function

Neither are firearms, but there is a very tiny percentage of folks who can just shake off a hit from a Taser. The same can be said for OC. The point is to use what you've got to your best advantage.

Back OT, one wonders about simultaneous hits. Would that cause the hands of both parties to spasm, thereby resulting in a mutual continuous "Tasing"?

 

[shdwfx]

Would that cause the hands of both parties to spasm, thereby resulting in a mutual continuous "Tasing"?

Pseudo code for the mutual "tase" routine:

tase(Agressor, Victim)
{
voltage_on(Victim)
sleep(5)
voltage_off(Victim)
tase(Victim, Agressor)
}

 

[Geno]

Don't tase me Bro'!!

 

[bigdee]

Tazers can be defeated by body armor, thick leather coat multi layers of clothing. Trusting a tazer alone therefore is not a good idea.

 

[sacp81170a]

Tazers can be defeated by body armor

Nope. We regularly taze officers through their body armor in training just to show this. As long as the probes make a circuit, body armor is actually worse because the taser arcs through it and causes burns on your skin. Thick clothing that's loose can make the probes fail to complete a circuit, however. The pulse will go through about 1 1/2 inches of material, but if the probe is any farther away than that from your skin you've got no circuit. The solution for that is to drive stun them to a major muscle group.