2 questions/need advise for a bug bag

[mole]

I'm putting together a bug bag bit by bit and have two questions/need advice for a car bug bag. I live in the sticks and am not worried about urban chaos or terrorist invasion or anything. This is more of a "car breaks down far from home and I need to trek home to all my good/decent stuff" theme.

1) Would a NEF sportster rifle in .22 mag be a decent bag gun? I figured that it could be broken down into a smaller package to fit in the bag easily. Pros would be: Ammo would be fairly common, round more powerful than a .22 lr but still small/lite weight, quieter than a larger bore, most likely will not be considered "evil" by anti's or overzealous law enforcement, and Wal-mart's website has them listed for $109. Cons: Not high powered, single shot, and needs a scope(no iron sights I think). I sometimes carry a 9mm pt 92 (great gun by the way) that should do for anything up close. If figure the NEF would be more PC than a pump 12 guage, sks, etc....

2)I'm thinking about adding a surplus wool blanket or two (I currently have a cotton/synthetic blend). I will probaly use them a few times a year and want to clean them occasionally. How do you clean them and keep them from shrinking? Are they "pre-shrunk" so that shrinkage would be less of a problem? Any good internet resources (I'm in the sticks remember) for decent blankets. I see cheaperthandirt has some surplus French and Italian wool blankets. Are these blankets any good?

On a side note, I've read several people's lists of bug bag items and it hit me that I don't recall seeing a small sewing kit listed. I didn't pay too close of attention, so I could be wrong. A kit could come in handy.

Thanks,
mole

 

[Sam]

+10 on the sewing kit.
Someone mentioned it in an earlier list although I don't remember who.

Wool blanket= Smart move in my book. They are a bit heavy but work when wet if they have not been washed. Do not try to shrink it. you will remove the natural oils that make it work like it should.
I think the NEF would be fine. I have a Stevens Marksman converted to 32S&W long that I like. About 4 lbs.

Sam

 

[Wheeler]

I'll say this, a .22Mag is a mean little round, with good shot placement, you can take down a deer. On the other hand, why are you worrying about being PC in Georgia? It's legal to have a gun in your car even if you don't have a carry permit. If you want to keep a bigger rifle in your car or truck, as long as it's not loaded, you should have no problems with law enforcement, even in Atlanta. They need a reason to search your vehicle anyways. Eho cares what the antis think? In the event you have to grab your bag and start hiking, they'll be running about looking for a CNN camera to blame their sad state of affairs to.

Kudos on the sewing kit. I have two, one I keep in my rucksack and another I keep in in a large fanny pack. Those small items are just too handy to have to not carry them around, especially considering how little weight they add to your bag.

Wool blankets have a good little bit of weight when you start carrying them around. A lighter alternative, although a bit more expensive is a good quality poncho and poncho liner. Actually, two ponchos and one poncho liner is even better. You can Use one poncho and liner for a sleeping bag, the other liner for a ground cloth/tent/lean-to/shelter etc. If you are planning to head for the hills via shoe leather express, I would reccomend that you pack your gear or in the case of the items you don't have yet, pack an equivilant weight, and take a little hike with your Bug Out Bag. I took a short hike around Stone Mountain with a pack that weighs half my bag and was saddened and dismayed by the downward trend my physical condition has taken. I suppose it's better to find out under those circumstances rather than when I HAVE to make that hike.

The one thing that I would strongly emphsize is to take a good hard look at what you NEED to survive for a week, pack it up and take a 5-6 mile hike with it, then take another good long look at what you need to survive for a week. Some things you absolutely have to take with you. Some things you can do without. A sewing kit is worth it's weight and more. a .22 Mag is a good round but, if you have to use it for defense, you might find yourself wishing you had something a little larger. I can get consistent hits on a steel poper at 40 yards with my Glock 17, that's respectable in my book. I can get the same groups in the same time frame with my AR at 220 yards. For me, that's good shooting. I have a better chance of getting a head shot on a deer at 150 yards with that same AR than I do with my Model 94 .22 Mag. I'm not sure where your shooting skills are, but factor that in as well if you are planning to "head for the hills."

Wheeler

 

[pete f]

cotton in a bug out bag sucks . literally, it will suck up moisture as fast as it can and it will hold it in for a long time. keeping you warmer than you need to be, and at teh same time freezing you when you need to stay warm.

wool will keep you warm when wet better than cotton but not as well as the modern synthetics. they will wring out ninety nine percent dry and wiegh much less. for warmth some sort of a shell and a fleece layer will cover a huge temp spread. In warmer weather, the new sunblock lightwieght micro fiber clothes are great, the guides in the Keys swear by it.

This does not need to cost an arm and a leg either. Target and Walmart both sell synthetic fleece clothing at cheap prices. better grades are available from places like patagonia, sierra designs, EMS or REI.

Fleece blankets are not needed either. Walmart sells camo Fleece material in the sewing dept for often under 10 bucks a 60"By 36 " piece. and remnants are often much less. 3 or three dollars a running yard.

Our "in the car" emergency bags each have three 60x72 or so pieces. these plus the addition of a sleeping bag in the winter.

The surplus wool blankets vary widely. I have some that were norwegian army issue that are works of art. heavy tightly woven nearly wind proof and HEAVY< they resemble the boiled wool of the austrians than anything made here. We got some bulgarian blankets in a bulk buy that were just about useless. They were thin, ragged and smelly, so you spend your money and take you chances. I have replaced all teh wool in the cars with fleece...also the mice do not like the fleece if you leave them in the garage
..

As far as a bug out rifle, man you live in georgia, aint no need to be PC down there if the SHTF. Get something usefull. at the very least a 10/22 if not an sks.

 

[SteelyDan]

Cleaning milsurp wool blankets: Bottle of Woolite, bathtub, lukewarm water. Rinse a few times with fresh water. Throw in the dryer on low heat for 20 minutes, then hang outside to finish drying. Don't know if it's the "right" way, but it works well.

 

[AStone]

fleece

Not my choice of gun, but that don't mean it's wrong. What ever works for you.

About the wool. {Warning: opinion honed by winter mountaineering experiences in -8 degree F conditions}

At basecamp, i sleep under wool. I have a wool blanket that i bought for $25 in mexico in 1976. Still sleep under it on cold nights (like tonight) in base camp, where i don't need to carry it around, where there's a roof over head.

But for a bug out bag, as much as i love that wool blanket, if weight is a consideration, and more importantly if i won't have a roof and it's likely to be wet in the shelter, i'll carry fleece.

Fleece, fleece, fleece.

Fleece pullovers. Fleece pants. Fleece socks. Fleece hat. Rain parka & pants over all of the above to keep them dry.

Preferred sleeping insulation on top of fleece: down sleeping bag with waterproof (but breathable; e.g., gortex) bivy sack on top.

If there's still room in addition to all of above, then, i'll carry the wool.

Fleece is your friend for all the reasons mentioned above: light weight, dries MUCH more quickly than wool, and will - if necessary - keep you warmer than wool when wet. (All but stupid ones forget about cotton except in warm deserts during summer.)

Q: Which of the following is the most important reason to pump petroleum from the ground: jet fuel, gasoline, agricultural fertilizer or fleece?

A: Fleece. Hands down. Fleece.

 

[mole]

Thanks for all the replies and advice. I think I'll try out a little of everyones' suggestions and see what fits best. I had heard about wet wool still being useful and that's why I was interested in it. I though fleece was wool---just a certain way of making cloth from it??? I'll look into it more.

"I would reccomend that you pack your gear or in the case of the items you don't have yet, pack an equivilant weight, and take a little hike with your Bug Out Bag."
I just graduated from college where I toted a ~40 pound pack about 2 miles a day. I'm shooting for about a 50-60 pound pack that hopefully I could still deal with, but I believe your right that the extra 20 pounds would make a big difference after a few miles.


"why are you worrying about being PC in Georgia?"
A few months ago I was put over the hood of my car at a road block when one of the deputies (there were six or seven of them) saw a small baggie in my car. All they could think about was "yahoo, I got myself a crack head." I had just come from getting some watch links removed from the band of a watch I had bought and the extra links were in the bag. Heaven forebid that I had had my pt 92 or fireworks with me.

"Get something usefull. at the very least a 10/22 if not an sks."
I have both and trust and would recommend them both, but they won't break down as small as the break action NEF would. The .22 mag would reach farther than the 10/22 and be more accuate than the sks. Another thought is that I also have a Mossberg 500 with a 20 inch barrel and 7 round magazine. I could take the barrel and magazine off, but that would still leave the foregrip/pump sticking out and I'm afraid the connecting rods or whatever they're called could be bent. The 12 guage also wouldn't be as accuate or cheap as the NEF.

"You can Use one poncho and liner for a sleeping bag, the other liner for a ground cloth/tent/lean-to/shelter etc."
I keep two of those thin, dry cleaner bag/cover type ponchos in the car. They'd keep the rain off, but that's about it. I've got a nice, but ugly, raincoat (not for in the bag) that will definated keep my torso warm and dry. I also keep a fairly large tarp and some line in the car could be used to make a temporary shelter.
I'm wondering about the possiblities of moisture barrier sheeting used under houses. It's thin and lite wieght, but still rather tough. You can buy a 10 foot by 100 foot roll at home depot or such for not too much money. If someone could figure out how to get a good seam (melting??) or joining using this material we could make out our shelters/bags/covers to suit our own needs.

Thanks,
mole

 

[nhhillbilly]

Rifle suggestion is the Marlin Papoose is comes in it's own carry case that floats and breaks down to a small package. Semi Auto and reasonable price.

Fleece is the way to go. Use it all the time in the winter here in NH.

 

[AStone]

fleece, minimalist shelters & other threads

I had heard about wet wool still being useful and that's why I was interested in it. I though fleece was wool---just a certain way of making cloth from it??? I'll look into it more.

Hey mole,

It wasn't too many years ago when i was a wool guy. Then, I found fleece. For outdoor stuff, especially in wet cold, I never turned back. (I guess my post last night made that clear.)

You're right that originally the word "fleece" referred to a type of wool. (I've become so used to using the term to refer to polyester fleece that I sometimes forget that.) Here's a nice overview of fleece in a wool sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleece

The fleece that i most advocate for outdoor use, however, is polyester fleece. The fibers are obviously synthetic, made of polyester. Maybe we should call it p-fleece.

Speaking ONLY for myself, I find it to be superior to wool. (I hope that sheep ranchers and other wool officiando's will not come after me with shotguns for writing that.) There are several reasons for my love of p-fleece:

1) it's lighter than wool

2) it dries faster than wool. Wool indeed dries an order of magnitude faster than cotton (which, again, is not only worthless in wet cold, but dangerous as it can bring on hyperthermia very quickly {says one who's watched countless, cotton sweatshirt youth in the Pac NW shiver in the cold when their cotton wouldn't dry out during a long hike in the rain}) P-fleece, on the other hand, dries even more quickly than wool.

3) P-fleece is, IMO, warmer than wool when wet, and again, lighter when wet.

4) P-fleece is to me, more comfortable than wool: less 'scratchy'. Often, especially at night, if I've got to slip out of the sleeping bag to go outside for some reason, I'll just pull on a fleece pull-over next to bare skin. It's very smooth and soft.

Like good wool, p-fleece CAN be very expensive. Especially some of the name brands that are more 'yuppie fashion' oriented like Patagonia.

But if you look around at some backpacking stores, you can find some brands that are servicable and less expensive. There are companies that don't have the 'name recognition' that make fine fleece garmets that are functional even if not so nice looking (but in a bugout, who cares?).

I'd strongly recommend the best pull-over p-fleece sweater you can find with a substantial, high, button-up collar. And even more, I'd recommend a p-fleece hat. The old adage "if your feet are cold, put on a hat" is correct because ~25% of your blood flow goes to your head to supply your brain. So you loose a huge amount of heat from your head and neck.

Here's one fleece hat. Here's another more extreme one, a balaclava, for very cold climates.

As for minimalist shelters, take a look at Rayway tarp tents.

Here are a few more expensive ones.

Finally, you might want to take a look at, or even join, a THR bugout kit thread already in progress here. There's a wealth of information on it that may be useful. It's one of the best collection of survival ideas I've ever seen.

Hope this helps. Good luck getting your kit together.

N~

 

[hso]

It's been pointed out that fleece fabric is available in the fabric stores and that's great information. You don't have to worry about it unraveling, it sheds light misting rain, it wrings dry readily. Fleece clothing is availble in the "big box" discount stores. The only place cheaper is Goodwill and Blind Thrift. In university those of us in the backpacking/kayaking club would look forward for fall when folks too well off to wear last seasons Patagonia would donate them to Goodwill. We'd scour the Goodwill Store every week and there was always some score of great gear we couldn't aford.

 

[AStone]

when folks too well off to wear last seasons Patagonia would donate them to Goodwill. We'd scour the Goodwill Store every week and there was always some score of great gear we couldn't aford.

hahahahhahaa...

great story. great idea.

fleece garmets may go "out of style" quickly, but it takes years of heavy use and repeated washings to wear them out.

My two fleece pullovers - one with button up neck, the other with a very medieval- looking, high loosefitting collar - are both over a decade old. Both have been many a mile stuffed into a backpack. Both are starting to show some signs of wear - mostly some thinning around the elbows, but like me still have many good miles.

More recently, I bought an REI high-neck, zippered fleece vest. In winter, it is my second layer over a shirt (at home (in my studio), which I don't often heat, a cotton Wrangler workshirt; when in wilderness, that's a polyester long-john shirt).

I won't bugout from home without them.

 

[Wheeler]

mole,

I live in Ga. too, I'm not sure what part you hail from but, I am well aware of the mentality of a lot of the small town and even the big town cops. "Ah got me a baaj an uh guun, you'd better respec me!" Not all are like that, many are trying to do their jobs to the best of their ability, just like the rest of us working stiffs. Quite a few respect the right to carry firearms and act accordingly. It sounds like you got stopped by the wrong bunch at the wrong time. If you just graduated from college, I'm going to make the leap that you are in your early to mid 20's, which is one of the things they look for, it probably went from there, you said something or did something that they keyed off of, bang, strike 2, then the baggy... I've seen the pattern before. If nothing else, I would have filed a complaint with their department, at least force them to create a paper trail, maybe even talk to the mayor or county commissioner's office, etc. Nothing like getting a little bit of revenge through their own system.

If you don't have a carry permit, get one. It will save you a LOT of hassle in the long run. If you think things are going to go south, it might be better to speak up, say you have a blaster in the car, and a permit in your wallet, the blaster is wherever you keep it, what do you want me to do officer?

Everyone knows fireworks are illegal in Ga. The ones that were made legal will most likley be made illegal again after that incident in SW Atlanta.

Good call on the fleece, especially here in Ga, where the winters are wet and miserable. I have several fleece pullovers and a vest that has been threatened by my ever enlarging belly. Good stuff.

I should have been more specific on ponchos. I was refering to the military ponchos. Those things are the bomb, and got me through more than one overnight stay out in the woods while in the National Guard. The liners can be snapped into the poncho, and the ponchos can be doubled over and made into a sleeping bag. A second poncho, some 550 cord or equivilant, and some sort of ground mat will make life in the outdoors bearable. You can pick up some old field manuals at gun shows or surplus stores that will show you some different ways to make tents, lean-to's etc. Stay away from the shelter halves, they are canvas, and HEAVY!

Hope this helps,

Wheeler

 

[AStone]

some thoughts about ponchos

I have several fleece pullovers and a vest that has been threatened by my ever enlarging belly.

hahahahaha...yeah, i heard that. i've got to get back to regular exercise. ok, right after this next beer. <snap>

gotta agree with wheeler's take on the pull over & search. nobody can say for sure, of course, but sounds very plausible. i had similar run-in's when younger, often being scoped out simply cause i had long hair (late 60's, south).

however, i have a different take on ponchos. i'm not saying this is any better, just different.

i've not lived in GA, but i grew up in TN. I know that there's lots of 'woods' there such that wind is not so much an issue during rain.

however, since i've lived the last 20 years in the west (from NM to WA & OR), the 'woods' are fewer & farther between. there are many places where it's just open as a striper's g'string at the end of her performance.

in those places, the wind blows often and hard.
when the wind blows like that, ponchos rank somewhere between annoying and useless.

after having grown up in TN woods with trusty poncho, when i got out west and experienced my first two windstorms (yeah, it took getting wet twice to acknowledge this was common out here), i bought a real rain parka. one that fit tightly, with a zipper and good hood.

later i went for mountaineering parkas, the ones you'd want to be wearing, say, in tropical storm with 70 mph gusts or a Himilayan snowstorm, both with heavy winds and precipiations, where 'dry' means survival, but wind means "poncho flapping uselessly in the wind or ripped off entirely".

i guess it all depends on where you live, or where you might wind up living if a storm blows away where you live.

N~

 

[Wheeler]

Nemo,

Good point about ponchos and wind, they do tend to blow around alot. I'm basing my suggestions, such as they are on my experience in the National Guard. The vast majority of my gear is mil-spec or surplus. I stuck with US gear because that's what I am familiar with. The US ponchos are designed to fulfill several needs, the aforementioned uses as a ground cover, shelter, sleeping bag, etc. They also do extremely well when you are backpacking or rucksacking in the rain, they have enough room to cover your ruck and keep it mostly dry. I'm sure there are some commercial backpacks that are waterproof, I'm just to cheap to buy them.

The army also issued us wet weather gear, after one hike with that crap on, I decided to take my chances with the poncho and getting wet. Then again, the weather down here is a lot different, as has already been pointed out. I never really think about having to survive in a hostile enviroment out west, it's a totally different critter out there.

I have been looking around for a reasonably priced ($100 and less range), outer shell waterproof jacket with good vents, at least hip length in some sort of neutral color. Lots of pockets would be a definate plus. REI, Dicks, and Bass Pro all have offerings but, nothing that fits the bill in the price range I want. To make things more difficult, I don't want to purchase via the internet, I'm one of those oddballs that likes to get my grubby paws on something and see how it's going to fit and fel before I buy it. Any suggestions?

mole,

I made a couple of 20 mile road marches with 80 pounds of gear. I don't mean to disparage your physical condition or stamina but, there are quite a few differences between carry 40 pounds 2 miles and 60 or so an average of 15-20 a day. Don't mess around with the cheap bags, I mean cheaply constructed, not price. Get something with a frame, internal frames are the best in most cases, you lose some space but, they provide a lot more support. The downside to the older military packs, such as the large ALICE pack I have is they place a lot of weight on your kidneys, you want to center the weight on your shoulders and upper back.

Pack all your heavy stuff near the top. I used to "combat load" my ruck. In other words, I put the things I thought I would need the most near the top. While this provides some ease of access, over the course of a day's time, that weight will push into your lower back, causing all sorts of woe.

HAVE GOOD SHOES OR BOOTS! MAKE SURE THEY ARE BROKEN IN! You have to take care of your feet. If need be, change your socks 2-3 times a day. I would always try to carry at least 5 pairs of good socks. Wash your socks every day, you can always put them at the top of your pack to dry while you are walking. When you feel your feet starting to burn, or something rubbing, make a pit stop, (if possible) and check them. Moleskin and foot powder are your best friends! I cannot stress enough the importance of taking care of your feet. If you tear up your feet the first day of walking, you won;t go very far the next day, if you move at all.

Wheeler

 

[YammyMonkey]

Wheeler, look into the Marmot PreCip jacket & pants. The local Dick's and REI both carry them. They're right around $80-$125 from what I remember, you might be able to find last years stuff on sale still. It's NOT the same as a good 3-layer GoreTex climbing jacket/pants but it's also 1/5 the price more lightweight and more compact. Marmot also has an outstanding reputation for quality gear. I've used quite of bit of it mountaineering and performing mountain rescue trainings/missions in CO and have yet to want for better gear.

 

[AStone]

ventilation

Hey Wheeler,

I agree with YMonkey that it's the gortex (and other waterproof but breathable) technologies that will burn the bank account so quickly.

If you're going to go inexpensive, then you mentioned THE key to staying drier: ventilation. (Which is of course why ponchos CAN BE superior to waterproof but unbreatable jackets. If your sweat can't get out but is trapped inside by the waterproofing, you'll get as wet wearing it as not. This is critically important for rain jackets that will be worn during activity (i.e, walking up hill carrying big pack), and especially in warmer climates.

So, the key again: ventilation. Zippered, not pull over, so that you can zip it all the way down. Pit zips are a must, the bigger the better. Baggy, loose fit. (Good idea anyway; allows layering in winter.) Sleeves that are velcroed to allow tight fit when you need it, but open up to allow easy slipping over elbows (bare those wrists which loose a fair amount of heat because blood is close to the skin there as it passes into hands).

When you walk with the jacket on, start out cold (or at least a bit cooler than you want to be) knowing that as you walk, you'll warm up quickly and begin to sweat.

 

[LAK]

For a versatile arm I think the .22 RF mag might be a good choice. You could carry a respectable stash of cartridges and it would do in a pinch for most things.

On the other hand I tend to agree with Wheeler; and personally I would be inclined to go 30-30 or .357 lever - maybe a .30 U.S. carbine. Something light, handy and fast handling.

My settled preference for most clothing these days is natural fibers and materials. 100% Cotton top and bottom. Cotton and or wool felt hats, quality mixed socks, quality wool outers top and bottom if needed, leather and wool gloves. For winter cold - often changing in lower latitudes to rather warm during the day - a layered approach. Long silk underwear adds little weight for a cold weather first layer. For wet weather I prefer waxed or oiled cotton outer wear. Don't forget mosquito headnets; and I prefer long sleeved thin cotton shirts and pants even in hot weather in brush or woods to keep those biting and other stinging creatures off my skin.

And seconding Wheeler again, on boots. The most important choice in clothing you will make. A wrong choice may cause you more misery than anything else. Go for quality, light, and at least high enough to offer some support and protection to your ankles, and that can be resoled. A summer boot and a winter boot makes good sense to me from past experience in a temperate climate. You might get by with one pair for both. Otherwise make sure you try them on with the socks you will be wearing - summer and winter as applicable.

I like wool blankets, but only the high quality stuff. For versatile lightweight and all weather comfort though, it is a lightweight synthetic bag, a Goretex bivouac bag (actually a British Army Goretex "sleeping bag cover" in my case), and a closed-cell foam ground mat. One can pack the ground mat in a stuff sac (they weigh about nothing - and can even be cut down to a minimum size), and with a small waterproof groundsheet or similar a little open-ended shelter can be constructed to keep the wind and rain off the head and shoulders. Mosquito netting can be employed as well.

Rather than one moderate to large backpack I am leaning more to a modular belt & harness or load bearing vest, combined with a small daypack and buttpack. The idea being to carry quality gear - light compact items that work - and distribute the weight as evenly as possible around the body. Rather than having most of it on the back.
-------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[NMshooter]

Your pistol should be OK for defense, though I do not know what your area is like or what threats you might have to deal with.

If you really think you need something to hunt with and you do not want to use your pistol get a .22 target pistol. They are very handy for taking small game, the only kind you would want on a trip home.

Think light and fast, and you should spend more time at home and less time getting there.

 

[mole]

Thanks for all the advice. I'll definately take it all into consideration. I have a thin jacket that I guess would be considered fleece. It's fairly warm and very soft, but wind goes right through it. My rain coat/poncho/parka thing is just too hot to do anything but standing still. A lot of times before I get where I'm going I've stripped down to my t shirt. I'll figure something out. I just perfer the feel of cotton though. Hey, I'm in Georgia after all . Cotton is what made us money in the old days...of course, it destroyed our soil too.

"get a .22 target pistol." I have a Ruger 22/45 with a 5 1/2 barrel in stainless steel. I considered it, but thought that it wouldn't give me the accuracy or power of the .22 mag. Doesn't Ruger now make a 10/22 in a .22 mag? Maybe I should look into that, since that would give me 10 shots instead of 1.

"maybe a .30 U.S. carbine." My grandfather has one that he was going to give me, but when we went to get it he couldn't find the key to the padlock. Maybe I should visit and bring my dremel....

As far as boots, I usually wear boots made by Magnum. They are the most comfortable I've found, but not really tough. I bought some made by Coleman several years ago ($35!!!) that were waterproof and tough. Those were the best darn boots I've ever had. I wish I could find some more.

Why can't other people be as helpful as you guys? Oh yeah, they're living in their own worlds.

mole

 

[AStone]

I have a thin jacket that I guess would be considered fleece. It's fairly warm and very soft, but wind goes right through it.

Hmmm. If it's "thin", it may not be fleece. Fleece is usually kinda thicker than thin. It may just be a thin polyester jacket.

The way fleece works is, like wool, it "lofts", that is, it has lots of air spaces in it, which is what does the insulating. Like a down sleeping bag, the bigger the loft, the warmer the covering. Thicker fleece will be warmer than thin, therefore.

And for your point about wind going through it, yeah, that is typical of fleece. Although there is technology that sandwiches a windproof layer between layers of fleece (search "windstopper fleece"), most fleece is only an insulating layer. I personally think that the added price for windstopper fleece is a waste. When it's windy (or raining, of course), I personally just put on a "shell" on top of the fleece.

That's the way to go in most backpacking/mountaineering realms: layers. A base layer (polypro, silk, whatever, except cotton that traps moisture), then one to three insulating layers (depending on season), then a shell or parka over the top. The layers can be adusted as conditions change.

Best to buy a shell without insulating layers. Makes it less useful in warm wet.

 

[YammyMonkey]

I'm of the opposite opinion of Nematocyst regarding WindStopper. I won't buy any fleece outerwear that's not WindStopper. I've worn my Mtn. Hardwear WS jacket on the motorcycle at well over 100 mph and had zero wind penetration. It works and it makes the item more versatile since you'll only really need a shell if it's raining or snowing out. The WS fleece will breathe much better than any sort of Gore-Tex shell will and any well made item will have plenty of ventilation available so you can avoid building excess heat. In my experience the WS layer also makes the inner layer of the jacket more water resistant than a standard fleece item.

You can usually find WS fleece stuff on sale at near wholesale price (50% of retail) at places like Mountain Gear and Northern Mountain Supply among others. It is more expensive, but in my opinion worth every cent.

Obviously your local climate will dictate the usefulness of the WS gear. If it's only windy when it's raining then the WS will likely be less useful for you but if you get a lot of wind without rain like we do in CO then it'll be more useful.

I would definitely go with an uninsulated shell jacket as well. If you do get one with the zip-in ability for the insulating layer, don't use it. You'll stay warmer if you zip your insulating layer together first and your shell on top of that.

 

[rick_reno]

Mayonaise. One of those 5 gallon buckets you get at Costco. It can be used as food, makes an excellent lubricant, treat wounds and when the container is empty you can use it as a floatation device.

 

[AStone]

YammyMonkey makes good points re windstopper. Listen to him, not me.

Actually, on reconsideration, i realized i overstated my case about it being "wasted" (or what ever I said). It's good stuff. Granted.

I think my decision was based more on the idea that i was going to be backpacking, and would have my rain parka (light weight summer or heavy duty winter) anyway, so I would just save a few bucks and put on a parka if I needed windstoppage.
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And Rick Reno, wow, that's a LOT of mayo. You'll be the hero of the refuge camp when it comes to making BLT's

 

[LAK]

Very pricey, and I do not know of any U.S. retailers for it, but genuine cotton ventile clothing is very windproof, breathable, light and comfortable. I have a few of these items on my future shopping list. If you don't want to shell out several hundred dollars for a jacket or smock, one of their shirts order a few sizes too big would make a pretty good light jacket, and at 80 Pounds Sterling would transalte to about $160 at current rate of exchange. Shipping would be added of course.

It is also quite water resistant; made from specially (tightly) woven fine cotton. When wetted the fibers expand preventing water ingress. Only supplier I know of is West-Winds in the U.K.

http://west-winds.co.uk/

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