203,086 background checks on Black Friday

[orpington]

A record!

Now, I am not accusing anyone of anything, and perhaps everyone out there is 100% honest and/or understands the law fully, but it seems to me putting 2 and 2 together, that Black Friday being a huge shopping day for Christmas, that folks are buying these as gifts for others. Or maybe it IS the huge sales on Black Friday and folks are treating themselves to their very own firearm amongst all that Christmas shopping???

I avoid it. I stick to, mostly, pre 1899 stuff and unloaded, no pun intended, 2 post 1898 revolvers within the last month.

 

[primalmu]

Who cares if they are gifts for others? That's perfectly legal. Gifting a firearm does not make it a straw purchase...

 

[SteveChuck]

Who cares if they are gifts for others? That's perfectly legal. Gifting a firearm does not make it a straw purchase...

Good reply primalmu..A lot of folks don't understand that in order for it to be a "straw purchase" the person you gift it to cannot legally purchase that same firearm. Most states reqire some documentation of the "transfer" from you to the recipient so as to show legal possession in case it's lost, stolen and/or used in a crime.

 

[orpington]

You can buy a firearm with the original intent to gift? That's news to me! I thought the form asks if you are purchasing for your own use? Same for handguns?

 

[primalmu]

No, it asks you if you are the actual purchaser, not if you are the actual user. Think about all those youth rifles that dads buy their sons to get them started hunting -- those aren't considered straw man purchase either.

The form doesn't differentiate between long guns and pistols.

 

[Sam1911]

Good reply primalmu..A lot of folks don't understand that in order for it to be a "straw purchase" the person you gift it to cannot legally purchase that same firearm.

NO!
Sorry for shouting, but we've really got to nip this in the bud. The matter of a prohibited possessor and the matter of a straw purchase are COMPLETELY SEPARATE.

To be a straw purchase all that has to happen is that you buy a firearm on behalf of another person. That someone wants to buy a gun, and you go in and put your name down on the form instead of them. Usually, that's most clearly indicated because they're paying you for the gun, or making some barter or other deal to get it. This has been well established by the ATF, and in court.

Giving, trading, selling, or otherwise providing a gun to a prohibited person is a completely separate crime.

All very clearly spelled out in the instructions section of the form 4473: https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download

You can also find the information on page 165 of the guide: https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/atf-p-5300-4pdf/download

Most states reqire some documentation of the "transfer" from you to the recipient so as to show legal possession in case it's lost, stolen and/or used in a crime.

Most states? Really? I don't know of many that require any such thing. Which ones do?

 

[Sam1911]

Here's the link to Orpington's thread on whether or not you can buy a gun as a gift: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...gun-as-a-christmas-gift.829113/#post-10692970

 

[orpington]

I posted in the legal section after starting this thread, as I wanted this addressed by moderators in the legal section. I wasn't sure that early responses here were legally correct. And, thank you.

 

[LoonWulf]

Most states? Really? I don't know of many that require any such thing. Which ones do?

Hawaii requires you notify the firearms dept of a transfer in person or by mail within a specific time period. The buyer is required to then register within a week.
The buyer must also be in possession of a current/valid permit to acquire, which has a picture ID on it.

Seems convoluted, at least to a number of the guys ive listened to in the gun stores, but its never stopped me from taking home a gun I wanted within 2 weeks of seeing it.

 

[ih772]

Sorry to throw a monkey wrench in your assumption OP but I bought 2 guns on black Friday for me, not as gifts.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

There's fact and error in all these comments, maybe even mine.

A. "Who cares if they are gifts for others? That's perfectly legal. Gifting a firearm does not make it a straw purchase... "

Bona fide gift is a valid use for a firearm bought with your own money.

B. "A lot of folks don't understand that in order for it to be a "straw purchase" the person you gift it to cannot legally purchase that same firearm."

For it to be a straw purchase, you are buying the gun for the other person so their name does not appear on the 4473 as purchaser of record.

C. "You can buy a firearm with the original intent to gift? That's news to me! I thought the form asks if you are purchasing for your own use? Same for handguns? "

Bona fide gift is a valid use for a firearm bought with your own money.

D. "You can also find the information on page 156 of the guide: https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/atf-p-5300-4pdf/download"

The page number is 165. Everyone should follow those links, save copies of Federal Firearms Form 4473 and Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, to read and know yourself and to show to or to share with any one who complains of "no gun laws".

E. "Sorry to throw a monkey wrench in your assumption OP ..."

Counting NICS checks as a proxy for 4473 transactions does not tell you the number of guns sold. The 4473 has multiple lines for gun descriptions (and you can attach a page with descriptions beyond those on the 4473: you can buy an entire gun collection on one 4473 with one background check).

Usually multiple purchases are more modest. I bought a revolver and shotgun as gifts for my wife Nov 1998, one 4473, one TICS/NICS background check. My son bought matching M70AB2 rifles, one for himself and one for me as a belated and complete surprise birthday gift Mar 2006, one 4473, one TICS/NICS background check.

Both cases we were warned that buying guns of identical make, model, caliber required reporting the sales and could delay future purchases if authorities decided a pattern suggestive of straw purchase for resell showed in our buying habits (special places like the TN/VA border have special rules). I shudda asked if it were a federal or state reporting requirement.

 

[Sam1911]

The page number is 165.

Whoops! Edited.

 

[Sam1911]

Most states? Really? I don't know of many that require any such thing. Which ones do?

Hawaii requires you notify the firearms dept of a transfer in person or by mail within a specific time period. The buyer is required to then register within a week.

Ok, that's one. Some states do not allow private sales at all -- everything must go through an FFL. I'm not sure if that counts in SteveChuck's list. I believe that's CO, CA, DE, NV, NY, WA, and OR. So there's seven where you can't do a "private" sale at all, but which, aside from HI, have a record-keeping requirement on private sales?

 

[milemaker13]

Usually multiple purchases are more modest. I bought a revolver and shotgun as gifts for my wife Nov 1998, one 4473, one TICS/NICS background check. My son bought matching M70AB2 rifles, one for himself and one for me as a belated and complete surprise birthday gift Mar 2006, one 4473, one TICS/NICS background check.

Both cases we were warned that buying guns of identical make, model, caliber required reporting the sales and could delay future purchases if authorities decided a pattern suggestive of straw purchase for resell showed in our buying habits (special places like the TN/VA border have special rules). I shudda asked if it were a federal or state reporting requirement.

It sounded like a state requirement, they told me it was state police they had to notify. I'm speaking for IL. Also, I believe now I would have to do a BRC on a private sale (not sure) but there is no master list of ownership here. Easy example- a widow can sell her husband's collection and it makes no difference. Its all a paper trail. As in" do you have a piece of paper showing when you got it" in case of crime or dispute of ownership.

I think, lol.

 

[il.bill]

The State of Illinois requires private sellers to keep appropriate record of every firearm disposition for a period of ten (10) years.

The ONLY multi-firearm purchase requirement I am aware of for Illinois FFL Dealers is the federally required report of multiple handgun transfers to an unlicensed individual within five (5) of the dealer's business days.

 

[milemaker13]

Well there ya go! I was not sure if there was a new requirement for private sales in IL. Do you know if to there is any new "recommended" things, like back ground check or what not? I thought someone mentioned " visiting the IL state police website" for private sales.
I hope I'm wrong here...

 

[il.bill]

Here is the link to the Illinois State Police website for Person-to-Person Firearm Sales FOID Card Verification - https://www.ispfsb.com/Public/Firearms/FOID/PersonToPersonFirearmTransfer.aspx

For person-to-person sales in Illinois there is still the required 'waiting period' before transfer - three (3) days for all firearms EXCEPT one (1) day for shotguns and rifles.

The ISP site linked above will give the seller an authorization number that must be kept for ten (10) years along with the pertinent transfer information. After the authorization screen comes up, you are given the option to click on a link to print out a Bill of Sale with the required information. You can fill it out on the computer, or if your spidey-sense is tingling / your tinfoil hat is vibrating you can just print out the blank Bill of Sale and fill it in by hand, or write one up on your own. While nothing about the individual firearm transferred gets transmitted to the state other than the buyer's FOID verification, some appropriate written record shall be kept for ten years by the seller. Life in FOIDland.

I find it somewhat discouraging that Illinois is not even the worst of our fifty states when it comes to firearm transfers. A FOID card has been required here since 1968, but I have heard of far more onerous restrictions in others states in the good ol' USA.