After reading a bit of the AR vs. 12ga. thread, I have a question. There are lot's of ballistic comparisons and discussions regarding 9mm/.40S&W/.45acp, comparing their "energy" and "effectiveness". Anyone know of a comparison between 20 guage and 12 guage for practical home defense? If you have smaller, older, or just people intimidated by a 12 guage in the house, how much are you losing by going to a 20?
20ga. vs. 12ga. for home defense
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JamisJockey
member
The first rule
The first rule of self defense...have a gun!
I think the 20 is just fine for defense or hunting.
The first rule of self defense...have a gun!
I think the 20 is just fine for defense or hunting.
critter
Member
Perp is in SERIOUS difficulty facing any shotgun! Don't worry about the guage!
You're not losing very much, and there is definitely some significant overlap between 20ga and 12 ga in terms of pellet count, and velocity.
Either one, even with just a 1oz #8 shot trap load would be very effective at inside ranges. Within the first 35 feet or so the shot column hasn't even opened up and sort of acts like a gigantic Glaser safety slug.
It's been said that heavy winter clothing or thick leather jackets can disrupt the smaller shot sizes, even at close range, but I've never read a substantiated account of this at under 10 yards.
A quality gas operated 20ga is probably a great solution for the recoil sensitive, and those who might short-stroke a pump under stress.
Either one, even with just a 1oz #8 shot trap load would be very effective at inside ranges. Within the first 35 feet or so the shot column hasn't even opened up and sort of acts like a gigantic Glaser safety slug.
It's been said that heavy winter clothing or thick leather jackets can disrupt the smaller shot sizes, even at close range, but I've never read a substantiated account of this at under 10 yards.
A quality gas operated 20ga is probably a great solution for the recoil sensitive, and those who might short-stroke a pump under stress.
TonyB
Member
Once again like a dope I traded my 20ga 870 in.....man I gotta stop doing that..........it was a great gun too,but with the arthritis I can't shoot lond guns anymore.......but it would've been a great choice for the wife in a home defense senario......
I distinctly remember an article about this that appeared several years ago in some gun magazine or the other.
The writers took several different shotguns in different gauges and fired diferent loads in them at blocks of ballistic gelatin.
The results were that what determined depth of penetration into the gelatin was the size of the shot or pellets, not the gauge of the shotgun.
Their results showed that #4 shot from a 12 gauge penetrated like #4 from a 20 gauge and #4 from a .410, etc.
Same for the various sizes of buckshot.
The main difference in 12 gauge 00 buck and .410 00 buck, according to that article, was in 12 gauge 00 buck you get a lot more pellets than in .410 00 buck.
So, individual pellets penetrated according to what size they were, not what shotgun they were fired out of.
And the main difference in the gauges was how many pellets were going down range at one time.
hillbilly
The writers took several different shotguns in different gauges and fired diferent loads in them at blocks of ballistic gelatin.
The results were that what determined depth of penetration into the gelatin was the size of the shot or pellets, not the gauge of the shotgun.
Their results showed that #4 shot from a 12 gauge penetrated like #4 from a 20 gauge and #4 from a .410, etc.
Same for the various sizes of buckshot.
The main difference in 12 gauge 00 buck and .410 00 buck, according to that article, was in 12 gauge 00 buck you get a lot more pellets than in .410 00 buck.
So, individual pellets penetrated according to what size they were, not what shotgun they were fired out of.
And the main difference in the gauges was how many pellets were going down range at one time.
hillbilly
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
I don't think it makes much difference? The perp ain't
gonna know what hit him anyways. You could take
a slege hammer, hide behind a wall; and knock his
dad burn lights out when he rounded the corner, and
chances are he'd wish he'd been hit with a load of 00
buckshot.
Now, a sledge (prounced slud'ge here in the south)
hammer sounds like a viable HD weapon for poor
folk's.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
gonna know what hit him anyways.
You could takea slege hammer, hide behind a wall; and knock his
dad burn lights out when he rounded the corner, and
chances are he'd wish he'd been hit with a load of 00
buckshot.
Now, a sledge (prounced slud'ge here in the south)
hammer sounds like a viable HD weapon for poor
folk's.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
cslinger
Member
Exactly how many grains would the head of sledge hammer be, ohh about 10,000 or so I guess. Velocity becomes less and less important doesn't it.
As for the 20 gauge vs 12 gauge argument I really don't think it is an issue as long as both have the ability for a quick followup shot or two as in pump or semi auto guns.
Make sure it is reliable, make sure you can hit with it and load it up with the best darn ammo you can buy.
Most burglers are looking for an easy score and if they happen upon little ole' you with a boomstick in either gauge then what they are going to see is roughly equivilent to a train tunnel and chances are bowl function will be lost and whimpering will begin.
In the unfortunite event of actually having to shoot something tells me a slug or 00 buck from either is going to be devestating at that range.
Chris
As for the 20 gauge vs 12 gauge argument I really don't think it is an issue as long as both have the ability for a quick followup shot or two as in pump or semi auto guns.
Make sure it is reliable, make sure you can hit with it and load it up with the best darn ammo you can buy.
Most burglers are looking for an easy score and if they happen upon little ole' you with a boomstick in either gauge then what they are going to see is roughly equivilent to a train tunnel and chances are bowl function will be lost and whimpering will begin.
In the unfortunite event of actually having to shoot something tells me a slug or 00 buck from either is going to be devestating at that range.
Chris
artherd
member
The perp's not going to have time to notice the subtle barrel size differences while simultaneously,
Peeing his pants.
Whimpering.
Making his peace with the great beyond.
Peeing his pants.
Whimpering.
Making his peace with the great beyond.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Shoot what you want. The 20 will do the job just fine. Even the 410 carries more energy than most handgun ammo.
Mulliga
Member
The problem isn't that the 20 is specifically worse, it's just that the 12 is the 900 lb gorilla of the shotgun market.
Go to any Wally World, and see how much buckshot they sell for the ole 20 gauge (doesn't even have to be 00 - even lesser loads will be scarce). Do the same for the 12. Repeat for all the popular shotguns/accessories - Mossberg 500, Remington 870, etc., etc.
Personally, I own a Rem 870 Express in 20, and if a BG/JBT comes into my apartment, he'll get 7/8 ounces of bird shot for his trouble.
Go to any Wally World, and see how much buckshot they sell for the ole 20 gauge (doesn't even have to be 00 - even lesser loads will be scarce). Do the same for the 12. Repeat for all the popular shotguns/accessories - Mossberg 500, Remington 870, etc., etc.
Personally, I own a Rem 870 Express in 20, and if a BG/JBT comes into my apartment, he'll get 7/8 ounces of bird shot for his trouble.
sm
member
A 20 ga is a fine tool.
There are a couple of best kept secrets:
- 1100 in 20 ga ( probably the best kept of all btw)
- Beretta 303
- 870 pump
-311
-NEF youth model in 20ga.
( this is the sleeper of the bunch, my mother keeps one handy. I'm continually surprised with its ability to pattern shot and the tight slug groupings. I have recommended and helped quite a few elderly and needy persons obtain one).
There are a couple of best kept secrets:
- 1100 in 20 ga ( probably the best kept of all btw)
- Beretta 303
- 870 pump
-311
-NEF youth model in 20ga.
( this is the sleeper of the bunch, my mother keeps one handy. I'm continually surprised with its ability to pattern shot and the tight slug groupings. I have recommended and helped quite a few elderly and needy persons obtain one).
WVleo
Member
Hi , Out of the 3 870s I now have in the safe ,the 20ga/youth stock with the 20"rifled-sighted barrel is the in house go to gun ! Nothing wakes the dead like racking the slide on a 870 !!!!!!!! Keep 1 with a 28" rem-choke for hunting,12ga with 20"rifled hastings barrel for the deer ........WVleo
Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
@ 7000 gr per pound a 12lb sledge would be 84,000 gr at 5 fps, that is some energy
Mannlicher
Member
I have owned a little Mossberg 500C Cruiser in 20ga for years. The 20 handles fine, shoots well, is totally reliable, and fun to shoot. As has been mentioned, the real difference between a 12 and a 20 is in two areas. The 12 has more shot in the load, and #3 Buck is about the only size you can readily find for a 20ga.
Cooter Brown
Member
for home defense...
"The 20 is plenty", to coin a phrase. Any gauge, even .410 or 28, with multiple hits or a single slug, used "household-close", delivers a lot more stopping and killing power than any handgun. There are special light recoil tactical 20 gauge #4 BUCKSHOT loads and tactical choke tubes now offered on the market that optimize the 20 gauge.
"The 20 is plenty", to coin a phrase. Any gauge, even .410 or 28, with multiple hits or a single slug, used "household-close", delivers a lot more stopping and killing power than any handgun. There are special light recoil tactical 20 gauge #4 BUCKSHOT loads and tactical choke tubes now offered on the market that optimize the 20 gauge.
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grendelbane
Member
I recently purchased a Saiga-20. This shotgun is a twofer. With standard 2 3/4" shells, and set on the proper gas setting, it is a lightweight, light recoiling shotgun for small framed, or recoil sensitive individuals. With 3" magnums, and the proper gas setting, it is a lightweight, hard shooting shotgun for those who like recoil.
One advantage to the 20 gauge 3" magnum is that Federal makes a #2 buck load. I prefer the larger buck sizes, but this is apparently as good as it gets in a factory load. (I vaguely remember an article from the '70s where I thought they handloaded #1 buck in a 20 gauge. I would appreciate any comments on this area.)
The Saiga-20 is cheap, reliable, rugged, and definitely (f)ugly. The major drawback is the increased price of the ammunition.
When it comes to longer range, the 12 is definitely superior. Close up, I don't think any one is going to be able to tell the difference.
One advantage to the 20 gauge 3" magnum is that Federal makes a #2 buck load. I prefer the larger buck sizes, but this is apparently as good as it gets in a factory load. (I vaguely remember an article from the '70s where I thought they handloaded #1 buck in a 20 gauge. I would appreciate any comments on this area.)
The Saiga-20 is cheap, reliable, rugged, and definitely (f)ugly. The major drawback is the increased price of the ammunition.
When it comes to longer range, the 12 is definitely superior. Close up, I don't think any one is going to be able to tell the difference.
greyhound
Member
Yup, I discovered that for myself. (20 ga. Wingmaster). Ended up getting buckshot/slugs online.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Depends on where you are for ammo. Lots of 20 ga buck and slugs here.
#2 does seem to be the biggest shot available (3 inch), #3 in 2 3/4. Having butchered several deer that fell to a 20, I have zero problems using one for SD. Good lady friend has one I gave her - so I voted with my checkbook.
#2 does seem to be the biggest shot available (3 inch), #3 in 2 3/4. Having butchered several deer that fell to a 20, I have zero problems using one for SD. Good lady friend has one I gave her - so I voted with my checkbook.
doubleclaw
Member
I don't care much fer a sludg'hammer, meself(too much recoil), but a whittled down 2x4 (with some 16p nails in it for good measure) does the job just fine with only a moderate drop in terminal velocity and effectiveness. As an added bonus, it has that intimidating "assault weapon" look to it, which combined with the mangy fur and leather loin cloth and several months of beard growth and not bathing, make for a terrifying experience for any would-be home invader.
Cooter Brown
Member
20 guage shells
Commerical 2 3/4" Wad Wizard Power20 tactical #4 buckshot shells are available on line from www.wadwizard.com/LE.htm If you are interested in a 20 for serious work, you need to check these out. Actual patterns are posted. They are designed to be effective for tactical LE work out to at least 25 yards.
Commerical 2 3/4" Wad Wizard Power20 tactical #4 buckshot shells are available on line from www.wadwizard.com/LE.htm If you are interested in a 20 for serious work, you need to check these out. Actual patterns are posted. They are designed to be effective for tactical LE work out to at least 25 yards.
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Gordon
Member
Guns have alot longer handles than clubs and hammers. 20ga guns with #3 buck work well under 15yards , slugs up to 30-40yds. Since I can see very little reason to shoot in self defense (unless under fire) over 50' , I think the faster repeat capability of a 20 would be an advantage, especially to some one smaller or who hasn't gone thru a Luis Auwerbach or Satterwaite SG training course!
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