.22 bullet from 1 mile away?

[Double Naught Spy]

Well, of course, they just meant: provided the bullet doesn't laterally S-curve or go shopping on the way. ;-)

Right. When folks look at a map, they see it as a 2D representation of the world. Point A to Point B if connected by a road shown to be straight can be said to be in a straight line...never minding hills, curve of the earth, etc., anything of the 3rd dimension.

Of course, if y'all want to pic on the poor TV person who doesn't know better, then you should spend some time picking on the gun people who should know better who proclaim their guns to be straight shooters. No firearm within a field of gravity shoots straight, does it?

 

[coloradokevin]

I feel for this guy. Being shot sucks, but being shot like that really sucks.

But, regardless of where the investigation leads on this one, the local shooting range has already been blamed on television, and I'll bet that a bunch of citizens are already asking for it to be closed! This shooting might have had nothing to do with the nearby range, but the local news clearly grabbed that carrot and ran with it. I consider that to be a mark of poor journalism, considering the limited information that is currently available.

And, as others have already pointed out, the media has done just enough research on ballistics to sound completely ignorant to anyone who has ever had any experience with guns.

x2. I can attest, after sitting on a jury for a first degree murder trial, real life crime scene investigation is nothing like "CSI". The trial I was in was sloppy and darn near negligent (cost them a conviction). They did not do any checks as to angle of entry, range, etc. In this case, if i was being charged I would have my defense do that work cause I have little to no faith in the lack of quality I have seen in crime scene analysis by some of the "pros".

In law enforcement there is a term we use called the "CSI Effect". People who sit on modern juries commonly want us to provide evidence that (in many cases) simply can't be obtained, or otherwise doesn't exist. To put things more bluntly, the writers of a television show can make darn near anything seem possible, but that still doesn't mean that we are going to be able to get fingerprints off of the polymer grip of a Glock 22, or a brick, in real life. Despite explaining these facts to juries at trials, some folks just refuse to believe that we can't actually do the things they see on CSI (I actually lost a SOLID robbery case at trial last year because the jury refused to believe that it was plausible for the suspect to handle the Glock, and not leave fingerprints on the grip).

I'm not trying to imply that you didn't already know this. There are plenty of other reasons that cases can fall apart, or be poorly presented. But, in many decent cases, forensic evidence simply doesn't exist (at least not with today's technology).

In the particular case that was presented in this thread, the local police department will probably not release much (or any) of their evidence to the media... this evidence can prove useful during the search for the shooter, and releasing too much information publicly (before a trial) can severely damage a case.

 

[Bexar]

It looked like from the video the bullet also had to travel through the seat he was sitting on. It would be interesting to see if the seat had a hard back. This unless that blood spot is from his just sitting back after getting hit. The video said the bullet knicked his pancreas and lodged in his lung which seems to indicate he was bent over looking into the hole when he was hit. If it was a 22LR my bet is the woods and somebody pot shooting at a squirrel or bird in a tree. That would give the angle.

If he was on a running tractor/back-hoe he probably didn't hear anything.

If it was a jacketed projectile then unless it was a .22 magnum from the woods it probably came from the range. A 22-250 could easily travel that distance from the range. In fact if it was much closer a 22-250 or .223 would have probably ripped him up. From the video it looks like he was hit low in the back and traveled at not to extreme an angle if it got his lung and pancreas.

But any forensic examiner would only shrug their shoulders based on the information we have so far.

Bexar

 

[RevDerb]

I think that it would be interesting to read the follow-up story, if there is one, nailing down particulars of actual caliber and results of forensics, etc. If anyone finds one, how about posting it here?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

It looked like from the video the bullet also had to travel through the seat he was sitting on. It would be interesting to see if the seat had a hard back. This unless that blood spot is from his just sitting back after getting hit.

It looked like a smear to me and I could not tell from the video which direction the seat back was oriented from the range and it seemed angled from at least a good section of the suspected 10 acres. If he was digging a trench like he was and trying to watch his hole (likely a rented machine and he isn't a greatly experienced operator and so this probably wasn't an excavation job in his 'comfort zone'), then I would be willing to be he was hunched over to watch his dig, pulling his back from the seatback anyway...but that is just subjective based on my own experience.

 

[dougw47]

hmmm...

I lived 5 miles from there from 1964 until 2000, and behind the rifle range as I remember it, on the other side of their property was a 100 foot high mound where the City of Garland buried their trash. If someone deliberately, or accidentally shot over that mound with a .223 type centerfire...it would have probably passed well over this guy's house and hit about 1 mile further.
In my opinion.

A .22lr would have come in like a rainbow from that distance, and again...in my opinion, would have made a much less serious flesh wound. I was shot in the arm at a local lake...over about 1/2 mile of water...the slug hit my arm, thit the bone and traveled about 5 inch up my arm, where I dug the slug out from under a 1/4 inch of flesh. I put a folded napkin over the wound, wrapped it with duct tape and kept on fishing. But, that was me.

The puzzling thing is how the bullet cleared the wooden fence and hit the back, the pancreas...and went UP into the lung...or did I get that wrong.

Oh, well...a mystery! A friend near the lake here last New Year's...had a .25acp slug come down from the sky, through his hat and embed itself in his skull. Makes me think of two things. First, we must be careful and thing where the bullets may go/wind up. Second, some people just find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I don't remember this shooting being on the Dallas News at the time... Houston must have had either a slow news day...or the anti's were looking for any straw! I wrote to the reporter, but have not gotten a reply.

All the people that get shot every day in Dallas, or Houston...and they go after a shooting range. Don't you love the media?

 

[double bogey]

The story was in the local news. I meant to post it before and forgot (I'm in the a/c business and it's been hot). I remembered and had to track down a link. I really hope the guy heals well. If I hear anything I will update. I hope this range doesn't close because I like to shoot there. They have several stations that have 50 and 100 yd target stands and I shoot .22s a lot. (Wasn't there that day) The berms are pretty tall (15-18 ft, my est.), but at 100 yds, it doesn't take a lot of elevation to get over them. And you can see the landfill mound from the firing line. This is a pretty safe range, the R.O.'s are attentive, and will get all over anyone approaching a bench during a cease fire. I have seen them send people home who just didn't get it. I started this thead to show how the local press would go with bad info. I think it is very possible for the centerfire rounds to go this far and do this much damage, but a rimfire, it would suprise me if it wouldn't be tumbling at 1 mile, with very little energy left.

 

[rbernie]

As the shooter first described the event, the bullet entry would be opposite from the direction of the range.

 

[hey_poolboy]

Maximum Distance
Input Data
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.240 G1 Bullet Weight: 40.0 gr
Muzzle Velocity: 1080.0 ft/s
Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 68.0 % Altitude: 1200.0 ft
Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Output Data
Atmospheric Density: 0.07288 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1116.5 ft/s
Initial Angle: 32.5 deg Terminal Angle: 59.9 deg
Terminal Range: 2620.0 yd Terminal Velocity: 331.2 ft/s
Terminal Time: 21.9 s Terminal Energy: 9.7 ft•lbs


I know this is the physics of terminal velocity and range, but I just can't figure it out. I know I probably wasn't holding the gun at an exact 32.5 deg. angle, but my .22 rimfire can't get a bullet from edge to edge of a 1 mile square field. Of course it's also a carbine, and I don't know for sure how long the barrel needs to be for full burn to occur. On the other hand .22 CF can easily do that, and notice the energy, angle, and vel. differences.

Maximum Distance
Input Data
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.420 G1 Bullet Weight: 50.0 gr
Muzzle Velocity: 3780.0 ft/s
Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 68.0 % Altitude: 1200.0 ft
Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Output Data
Atmospheric Density: 0.07288 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1116.5 ft/s
Initial Angle: 32.5 deg Terminal Angle: 64.9 deg
Terminal Range: 5373.3 yd Terminal Velocity: 466.7 ft/s
Terminal Time: 32.2 s Terminal Energy: 24.2 ft•lbs
03/08/10 20:03, JBM/jbmdist-5.1.cgi

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Correct your data for a temperature of 85 degrees and 85% humidity with an elevation of 505 feet above sea level.

The temp and humidity were both achieved on the day of the shooting in the DFW area. In fact, it got in the 90s during the later afternoon and humidity got higher as well. But without knowing the exact time of day, I figure 85% and 85 degrees @ 505 elev. are a lot closer than running 68% and 59 degrees at 1200 feet elevation.

Sorry, no clue what the BP was for the day or how it changed throughout the day.

 

[hey_poolboy]

True. I did not do enough research to find the correct elev. Here's the corrected data.

.22-250
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.242 G1 Bullet Weight: 50.0 gr
Muzzle Velocity: 3780.0 ft/s
Temperature: 85.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 85.0 % Altitude: 505.0 ft
Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Output Data
Atmospheric Density: 0.07055 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1144.1 ft/s
Initial Angle: 32.5 deg Terminal Angle: 66 deg
Terminal Range: 3710.0 yd Terminal Velocity: 362.4 ft/s
Terminal Time: 26.1 s Terminal Energy: 14.6 ft•lbs

.22 rimfire

Ballistic Coefficient: 0.102 G1 Bullet Weight: 40.0 gr
Muzzle Velocity: 1080.0 ft/s
Temperature: 85.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 85.0 % Altitude: 505.0 ft
Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Output Data
Atmospheric Density: 0.07055 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1144.1 ft/s
Initial Angle: 30.0 deg Terminal Angle: 64.9 deg
Terminal Range: 1496.7 yd Terminal Velocity: 227.4 ft/s
Terminal Time: 16.7 s Terminal Energy: 4.6 ft•lbs

Note: I also corrected the rim fire round for BC. I hadn't found one the first time around. HUGE difference in term. range.

 

[oldbanjo]

I saw a friend of mine get shot, we were at work in a Naval Shipyard, the building we were in was tall with windows 20 feet above us. A bullet went thru a window above us and hit my friend in the shoulder. The bullet fell on the table. My friend had a red welt on his shoulder. The Navy Police came, the bullet was a 25 auto, a sailor had fired the gun up in the air.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I am sorry a person got hit by a stray bullet and wish a speedy recovery.

But....

"a .22-caliber projectile can travel approximately one mile in a straight line. "

Where do you get those? My .22 long rifle drop about 4 feet at 200 meters, and won't penetrate a metal pail at 440 yards.

 

[oldbanjo]

The warning on my pellet rifle says it can kill someone at 220yds.

 

[hey_poolboy]

I need one of those. My pellet rifle has a hard time killing a rabbit in my garden.

 

[Millwright]

Forensics is the answer here !! They'll determine the type of bullet recovered as well as provide data on the type of arm, twist rate, etc ! > [MW

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Thank you hey poolboy. The corrections really seemed to drop the distances significantly. Wow.

 

[double bogey]

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/gun-range-102037893.html

Still no concrete evidence as to where the bullet came from or what type it was. Of course he wants the range shut down.

 

[rbernie]

No - he wants money. The threat of a legal injunction is how he intends to get it.

 

[Wolfebyte]

ok.. so maybe I'm a cynic..

but we have another mystery bullet in Texas..

.22 caliber
travels 1 mile.
through an abandoned church
through an dump ground
OVER a wooden fence (most likely a privacy fence?)
and strikes a man in the back
SITTING on his lawn mower
and it nicks his pancreas and lodged in his lung..

It's been a few years since I was an EMT, but I'm pretty sure that the pancreas sits lower in the body than the lung..

Wow..

what kind of trajectory tricks y'all pulling over there?

 

[rscalzo]

Shooters were having bullets bounce off the ground a short distance from the firing position

We have so many bullet strikes ten or twenty years in front of our target frames at the hundred yard range we no longer have to dethatch the grass.

Some members wonder why we shut then down when they decide to rapid fire their AK from the hip !!!!

We have already been closed once years ago for a stray shot (fortunately not hitting anyone). Since then we keep adding to the berms and even today we are adding another two thousand yards of material to all the outdoor backstops. Some seem to think that the knowledge to use comes along with the purchase price of the firearm.

but I'm pretty sure that the pancreas sits lower in the body than the lung..

Bullets make some strange turns when it enters the body. Strike a bone here or there and it radically can change direction. But I doubt it was a 22lr but up to now everyone is simpoly guessing.

 

[TraditionalCatholic]

I'm probably going to take a lot of flak for this, but I'll throw it out anyway.

Do I believe the bullet COULD have come from the range? Yes, I do. A .223 or .22-250 round COULD have achieved a steep enough trajectory to potentially cause that much damage at a 1 mile range. However, based on the very few facts currently available, I don't see how it could have happened, assuming the info we currently have is good. From reading the story, the bullet entered in his back? If it did, then it presumably would have gone through the seat as well. Assuming it did, then it would have lost even more energy.

My whole problem with this story is the city dump and the abandoned church. If it did indeed pass through these two obstacles, assuming it actually had enough energy to pass through them, then there is absolutely no way any .22 caliber projectile would have enough energy left to do the damage that was done to the victim.

And, I am no expert at all, as there are many out there more experienced, but I don't think that even a .223 could pass through a dump and an abandoned church building, even if it happened to go through windows, and not the walls, and still have enough energy left to injure someone.

I will be the first to admit that my post, along with many other posts in this thread, are based on speculation only. We don't have enough facts yet to determine for sure that this shooting was accidental, where it came from, or anything else for that matter. What I can do is hypothesize that it is not only extremely unlikely, but virtually impossible, for a .22 caliber projectile, even if it was a .223, to come from the shooting range and cause that much damage.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

From reading the story, the bullet entered in his back? If it did, then it presumably would have gone through the seat as well. Assuming it did, then it would have lost even more energy.

The video showed no hole in the back of the seat of the track hoe, they they did show the seat quite clearly. When operating such machinery, the operator is not always seated with his back against the the seat back, leaning over to getting a better view of where the bucket is digging.

 

[gendoikari87]

Theoretical limit for a good 22 lr is 5 miles... in a vaccum, at an angle of 45 degrees. So is it possible, yes, likely ... no. if any body has the co-efficient of drag I can do a more in depth calculation. I'll try it with a roughly aero dynamic CED later tomorrow but I don't have time right now to do simple DE's

 

[rbernie]

Post 61 did that already.