22 for home defense.. what should I use?

[Shawn Dodson]

Handgun.

I'm speculating with this suggestion, but a load that's probably better than CCI Maxi-Mag is Winchester 45gr Dynapoint, which uses a copper wash lead HP bullet. The copper wash doesn't present the same resistance to bullet expansion as does a thicker copper jacket.

Here's a photo of .22 LR CCI Singer 32gr LHP copper washed bullets fired from a Ruger 22/45. I would expect .22 Magnum Winchester Dynapoint to expand/fragment in a similar manner, but with deeper penetration (see http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/22lr/cci22-32stgr-r2245.htm):

 

[Manco]

I have a Ruger 22 Single Six New Model. It's a 22 with an interchangeable 22 magnum cylinder.

How long is its barrel? Granted, any Single Six is not going to have a very short barrel, but it still might make some difference.

Which one is best for home defense? I was thinking the CCI 30 grain 22 magnum explosive hollow point??

"Explosive" hollow-point translates into reality as a weakly constructed, poorly penetrating round that while impressive in blowing up small varmints, does little meaningful damage to medium-to-large-sized creatures such as humans.

I'll stick with the .22 magnums, non hollow point then.

That would probably be your best bet with this gun. In fact, with the longer barrel lengths, even CCI Mini-Mags or SGBs would penetrate to an effective depth in human targets. Solid .22 Magnum rounds, however, would likely penetrate even deeper and/or tumble more, which should cause more damage. I'm pretty sure about that, but I have to note that it is pure speculation in the absence of test data.

I suggest 40gr HP, either copper washed or JHP. It has enough velocity to penetrate deeply enough after expansion.

In rifles 40 grain HPs in .22 Magnum tend to expand a lot and underpenetrate, while in 2" handguns tend to not expand at all and penetrate decently. Are you saying that in handguns with relatively long barrels, they expand just the right amount and penetrate sufficiently? I'd feel better about this with actual test data, of course.

i would use Stinger CCi 32 gr JHP if all you got is a .22lr ,

I don't know about that--in a relatively long handgun barrel, a Stinger bullet may expand or even fragment, which will limit its penetration. In a snubby and nothing else, it may be a viable load for humans, although among .22 LR loads I tend to have a lot more faith in the CCI Velocitor with all barrel lengths.

i wouldnt suggest a revolver your better off with a semi-auto pistol or rifle then a revolver.

In my view, semiauto pistols aren't reliable enough with rimfire ammunition, and don't have much of an advantage, if any, in shot capacity to compensate for that.

If it was up to me i sell it and buy a decent 9mm pistol,its just as cheap as a .22lr revolver and 10 times more effective.

I seriously doubt that the difference is anywhere near that great when the right .22 LR loads are used. By the way, ironically I have more confidence in more .22 LR loads than .22 Magnum loads due to the lack of test data for the latter. All I know is that .22 Magnum does well out of 2" barrels, underpenetrates in all of the other tests that I've seen (i.e. rifles), and is an unknown in longer pistol barrel lengths.

That magnum is gonna sound like a cannon inside a house.

That's a point against the .22 Magnum, in my opinion, but others may feel that it gives them a psychological advantage over bad guys.

Here's a photo of .22 LR CCI Singer 32gr LHP copper washed bullets fired from a Ruger 22/45. I would expect .22 Magnum Winchester Dynapoint to expand/fragment in a similar manner, but with deeper penetration (see http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/22lr/cci22-32stgr-r2245.htm)

That's not unreasonable to suppose, in my opinion, but it has to be backed by test data, especially given the following:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page2548.htm

This test shows that with A LOT more velocity out of a rifle, a .22 Magnum round (at least the one tested here, but this is all I have to go on) expands a lot more but does not necessarily penetrate much more. Frankly, I think that the CCI Velocitor and at least a couple of other .22 LR loads would be more effective against humans, despite being weaker, based on these data:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/var22lrrifle.html

It's sort of like how hard-cast bullets in pistol calibers are less effective against humans than JHPs, but more effective against bears--effectiveness depends on what is needed the most against specific targets. I'd need actual test data to be convinced that .22 Magnum HPs would do exactly what we want out of the 4.625" to 6.5" barrel of a Single Six, namely controlled expansion and sufficiently deep penetration against human targets. Without such data, I would say that the CCI Velocitor (.22 LR) and 40 grain solid-bullet .22 Magnum loads would be the OP's best bets.

 

[BBQLS1]

If you don't mind telling, why can't you sell the SS and buy a .357 Mag? SS's seem to pull a little money.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Are you saying that in handguns with relatively long barrels, they expand just the right amount and penetrate sufficiently?

With a copper washed bullet, as opposed to a copper jacketed bullet (which helps to hold the bullet together during expansion), I expect the bullet to overexpand and cause the mushroom skirt to partially shear off in fragments (as seen in the photo of CCI Stinger when fired from a 5.5" automatic pistol) allowing the bullet to penetrate deeper than if it had not fragmented.

 

[Tilos]

If I had a 22 for home defense, I would use











the back door
Sorry I can't help myself
Just sayin'
Tilos

 

[quatin]

Winchester Dynapoints SUCK

Keep in mind that when it comes to SD with small cartridges, you're more worried about penetration as opposed to expansion. I did this test a while ago with a Ruger Single Six and 4 different types of ammo. The Winchester Dynapoints out of a 4 5/8'' pistol had the same penetration as a .22lr out of a 20'' rifle. The problem is that the bullet has a copper coating, not a jacket. All the other .22 WMR ammo with copper coating far out penetrated the Dynapoints. I doubt you will get the 18 inch FBI standard, but shot flush to the chest, it should reach all the vital organs. Key point, real copper jacket, not a copper coating. Secondly, .22wmr out of a 4 5/8 pistol is loud as heck. It's one of the few guns that sets off my car alarm.

 

[floridaboy]

It's been quite a while since I bought .22 mag ammo. Winchester used to make a 40gr hp and a soft nose. My SS has a 5.5"barrel and both of these loads expanded and penetrated well on groundhogs. If I knew I'd need a .22 mag for home defence, I'd use the soft nosed Winchester. I think it would provide more than adequate penetration, and expansion. Bet the target wouldn't know it from a .357, if you place it right.

 

[Wonderclam]

If you don't mind telling, why can't you sell the SS and buy a .357 Mag? SS's seem to pull a little money.

I made a thread about it here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=539902

 

[hso]

As a PR you have every right to purchase a legal firearm. You should pursue finding out what the actual requirements are from the local BATFE branch office instead of just taking the word of a single gun shop. Of course, you could go to any of the local gun shows and make a purchase face to face without involving an FFL who's not willing to think beyond their familiar "utility bill/rent receipt" SOP.

As to which .22 mag ammunition is best suited to SD, heaviest non-hollow point you can find for penetration.

Here's what Chuck Hawks had to say. http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_roundup_22WMR.htm

 

[Oyeboten]

In real estate, the old saying is "Location Location Location"


In SD situations, especially with a .22, the saying is "Shot Placement Shot Placement Shot Placement"


You put your Shots where they need to go, that's all anyone can hope for with any Caliber...and with this, Bullet type is not really going to matter much.

 

[ms6852]

Of the two options you have I would use the 22 magnum and have the 22 long rifle cylnder ready as back up. The problem that most people have with 22 long rifle is stopping power but in reality both types of rounds are very deadly and can produce fatal results, just not as fast. I would use full metal jackets as the hollow points may only penetrate a couple of inches and if its a large person like myself (285 lbs) the bullet will fragment in my fat before penetrating the muscle wall and than damage organs arteries etc.

 

[Manco]

You put your Shots where they need to go, that's all anyone can hope for with any Caliber...

Be that as it may, penetration depth can make a huge difference in the total area of the target in which shot placement would be effective. For example, with 2" of penetration, you'd have to hit targets in the eye, and that's pretty much it, but with 15" you could hit them almost anywhere vital structures exist.

and with this, Bullet type is not really going to matter much.

On the contrary, bullet type and load design on the whole both matter a great deal for small calibers such as these (even if they don't for .45 ACP or .40 S&W). With the right loads and barrel lengths, you could get more than enough penetration against human targets, and with the wrong combinations you could get pathetically inadequate penetration that greatly reduces your shot placement opportunities, and thereby your effectiveness and odds for survival. It is the latter that has given .22 LR a poor reputation, but that doesn't change the fact that it has the potential to be much more effective, especially in the hands of those who can shoot it better than other calibers (being so inexpensive also encourages more practice).

 

[9mmforMe]

My guess, devoid of data to back this up, would have you using a 40gr .22 WMR jacketed round nose bullet. It would offer greater penetration without fragmenting as easily, yes these bullets can still fragment though not as commonly. With what you have, go for penetration and hit center mass. Practice and become proficient cocking the hammer and firing as well as hitting the center of your target.

 

[hardworker]

I truly think that unless you've inspired the wrath of the mafia or stolen nuclear secrets from the KGB, a 22 can be used successfully in home for defense. No average criminal after a TV is gonna charge into a pistol that sounds like a cannon, and like as not he's not gonna be able to tell it's a 22 from across the room. Once he high tails it out of there he'll be telling his buddies that some guy with a 44 magnum ran him out.

 

[.45Guy]

Can someone with a better connection find and link to the thread by a THR member in South Africa that had a NAA mini revolver blow up in his hand while fending off a group of TT-33 armed assailants? If I remember correctly, his name was Proud Boer....

 

[lions]

Ask and you shall receive.

Amazing story.

 

[Oyeboten]

In a short Barreled Pistol, are we that sure that normal kinds of .22 are going to be really that different for penetraiton or expansion?

In Rifle, sure...but in Pistol..?


Dunno, maybe it would make a difference afterall.


I have heard or read at least a few stories of assailants being dropped with one shot of plain old Standard Velocity .22 from a small Iver Johnson Revolver or from an Automatic such as a High Standard or Colt Woodsman.

 

[Manco]

In a short Barreled Pistol, are we that sure that normal kinds of .22 are going to be really that different for penetraiton or expansion?

In Rifle, sure...but in Pistol..?

It depends on how short of a barrel we're talking about. In the ~1" barrels of some mini-revolvers, I don't think there is much of a difference between standard-velocity and high-velocity or hyper-velocity .22 LR loads. In these cases, .22 Magnum does provide a clear advantage over .22 LR, by the way.

For the following, I'm assuming solid bullets or bullets that won't expand at these relatively low velocities. In barrels that are about 2.5" or longer, hyper-velocity loads such as the CCI Velocitor should be able to meet or exceed the common minimum penetration standard of 12", while standard-velocity loads will fall short. At 3" to 4" the Velocitor would begin to excel in penetration while high-velocity loads such as the Mini-Mag would approach the minimum standard. At 5" to 6" the Mini-Mag should exceed the minimum standard while standard-velocity loads should approach or meet it.

The real problem loads in .22 LR--aside from super-cheap ones that may underperform or be unreliable--are actually hyper-velocity loads that are designed to fragment or expand even when shot out of handgun barrels. Generally we don't want any expansion because that would probably imply underpenetration. While .22 Magnum certainly has more potential, it may or may not live up to it in handguns with barrels longer than 2" due to the complex relationship between velocity and penetration, particularly with the smaller calibers. I'd need more hard test data in order to be able to say anything meaningful about it aside from that it's superior in mini-revolvers and derringers.

Dunno, maybe it would make a difference afterall.

It does according to the test data I've seen, mostly from Brass Fetcher but also from other sources.

I have heard or read at least a few stories of assailants being dropped with one shot of plain old Standard Velocity .22 from a small Iver Johnson Revolver or from an Automatic such as a High Standard or Colt Woodsman.

Sure, a plain, standard-velocity lead round in a short revolver could probably muster maybe 8"-9" of penetration, which while kind of weak can kill with some additional luck. In a typical Colt Woodsman, it might get 10"-12" of penetration depending on the exact barrel length, which isn't too bad against most humans. The loads that I recommend for handguns--mainly the CCI Velocitor (which also works great in rifles with decent penetration AND expansion)--will perform even better, though, and much closer to my own standard for penetration, which is higher than most (I prefer 18" and wouldn't mind having even more to compensate for various factors that cause penetration in real shootings to often be less than what we see in ballistic gelatin).

 

[orionengnr]

If you point it at someone and threaten to shoot them, they probably won't ignore you because of the caliber. To a dirtbag, any barrel of a loaded firearm probably looks pretty much the same.

Yeah, and an empty gun, or a blank-firing starter pistol, or a cap gun all fall into the same category.

This is a well-known poker strategy...known as a bluff. Nearly all poker players bluff with money that they can afford to lose.

If you choose to bluff with your life as the stakes....at least be aware of the choice you have made...and be willing to live (or die) with the results.

I find some of the posts here absolutely amazing....

 

[hardworker]

A loaded small caliber firearm isn't a bluff so much as it's a pocket pair. Pocket pairs are dangerous

 

[mgkdrgn]

A 22 fmj magnum bullet will penetrate through a human body, right?

IF all it hit was soft tissue, It just might.

Solid point 22 mag, even out of an NAA mini, will yield 18" of penetration in ballistic gel.

22 mag is a particularly nasty little round that never quite gets it's due in the CC world. It is at least as effective as .380, which a lot of people carry.

IF I could, I would prefer to carry a full size 1911 with a 14 round mag capacity ... but that is a little tough when your normal mode of dress is shorts and a tshirt.

 

[ms6852]

I have shot 22 long rifle bullets at 1" X 4" boards at 200 yards and the bullets have gone straight through so yes, a 22 magnum will penetrate through a human body. The funny thing is that if the body is not to close it will penetrate more than if the body was closer to you because there is less energy transfer at longer distances so the bullet will not fragment or mushroom as much.

 

[Tim Burke]

I would expect .22 Magnum Winchester Dynapoint to expand/fragment in a similar manner, but with deeper penetration

Maybe. The extra mass should help with penetration. However, any extra speed may be counter productive. The 22 gelatin results all look like they under penetrate to me, so I'd err on the side of more penetration, at least until I had some comparable data.
I'd just use the "CCI full jacket 22 magnum 40 grain."

 

[powerline]

What about the 22 LR Aguila Sniper Sub Sonic?
Yeah, it's slow, but it's also a solid 60 grain chunk 'o lead.
Seems like it would do some damage.

 

[bk42261]

I would try to trade for a medium-frame .38, or, better yet, .357 and get a couple of speed loaers. Still easy and cheap to shoot, with much more options and power.