Berek
Member
hksw said:
Maybe just ZIP it and post it. I like the layout as well. It looks to give good side-by-side. That would be great for load compare/reloading compare...
"Please sir. I'd like some more"
22 lr groups
- Thread starter PITBULL
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Maybe just ZIP it and post it. I like the layout as well. It looks to give good side-by-side. That would be great for load compare/reloading compare...
"Please sir. I'd like some more"
50 vs 100 yd groups
I think the comment that good 50 yd groups do not equal good 100 yd groups is spot on. Could be because of passing through and then back through the sound barrier, or the sensitivity to wind of that little bullet.
I think the comment that good 50 yd groups do not equal good 100 yd groups is spot on. Could be because of passing through and then back through the sound barrier, or the sensitivity to wind of that little bullet.
Wllm. Legrand
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pbhome71 said:From my experience, 50 yds group does not translate into 2x that size at 100 yards.
Mine 100 yds groups seems to be 4-5x the size of 50 yards group. I'm not sure what cause this.
Whatever it is, I'm sure it is not me...
-Pat
It's called the "morning glory effect". The effect of the variables in play have a compounded effect beyond the mere arithmetric sum.
Lupinus
Member
If I take my time I can make coffee can lid (the normal size ones not them big whammer jammers) but then I haven't been shooting that long, the rifle is still getting broken in, I'm still getting used to the rifle, and I'm not exactly the worlds most steady shooter or have the best eyes. Open sights, no sope yet.
Well, I've just about quit posting to these type of threads,as no one ever believes me...
I've got a Marlin 60(bone stock, given to me by a friend before he died) I added some good rings and a Tasco Pronghorn (3-9x) scope on it....Tried a wide variety of ammo for it...
I recently shot the best group ever, using Wolf Match Target ammo..This is from a bench rest at 50 yards. 10 shot group that can easily be covered with a dime. Measuring center-to-center its close to a 1/2" group...
I've shot groups (10 shot) at 100 yards with this gun(again, benchrest under ideal conditions,as in no wind) that were around 3/4", IF you discount the one or two flyers I usually manage to throw in (and I can call these every time)...Even with the flyers, I've had one group at 1.25"...I think with a more powerful scope (9x isn't quite enough at 100 yards) I should be able to manage a sub-MOA group.
Haven't got my scanner hooked up at the moment, but I'll post a picture of the group, if I have time to hook it up soon.
Probably gonna buy a higher powered scope soon, just because I'm intriged to see what I can possible do with this thing...It has no right to be this accurate (my buddy has a $2500 target rifle, and can't quite best my 50 yard groups!)....After all, its a $125 autoloader!
I've got a Marlin 60(bone stock, given to me by a friend before he died) I added some good rings and a Tasco Pronghorn (3-9x) scope on it....Tried a wide variety of ammo for it...
I recently shot the best group ever, using Wolf Match Target ammo..This is from a bench rest at 50 yards. 10 shot group that can easily be covered with a dime. Measuring center-to-center its close to a 1/2" group...
I've shot groups (10 shot) at 100 yards with this gun(again, benchrest under ideal conditions,as in no wind) that were around 3/4", IF you discount the one or two flyers I usually manage to throw in (and I can call these every time)...Even with the flyers, I've had one group at 1.25"...I think with a more powerful scope (9x isn't quite enough at 100 yards) I should be able to manage a sub-MOA group.
Haven't got my scanner hooked up at the moment, but I'll post a picture of the group, if I have time to hook it up soon.
Probably gonna buy a higher powered scope soon, just because I'm intriged to see what I can possible do with this thing...It has no right to be this accurate (my buddy has a $2500 target rifle, and can't quite best my 50 yard groups!)....After all, its a $125 autoloader!
This is a 5 shot target I shot with a 10/22 at 50 yards. It has an aftermarket barrel.
These are a couple of 100 yard groups fired with a CZ 452 Special. With a proper trigger I am sure the groups would be tighter - the CZ has miles of trigger creep.
My old Sako shot some remarkable 100 yard groups , but like dfaugh above , no one believed the targets and I was basically called a liar on another forum.
These are a couple of 100 yard groups fired with a CZ 452 Special. With a proper trigger I am sure the groups would be tighter - the CZ has miles of trigger creep.
My old Sako shot some remarkable 100 yard groups , but like dfaugh above , no one believed the targets and I was basically called a liar on another forum.
Firehand
Member
Remington 512 with Federal Lightning will get about 1/2" groups at 50.
My Martini model 12 with Lightning or Eley Sport will shot 1.5" groups at 100; wonderfully accurate little thing.
My Martini model 12 with Lightning or Eley Sport will shot 1.5" groups at 100; wonderfully accurate little thing.
JohnBT
Member
The usual discussions seem to occur over whether one great group means a rifle is a sub-MOA gun at 50 or 100 yards or whether it has to do it regularly - group after group after group.
I've shot some screaming groups, but I'm not good enough to do it time after time even using wind flags. Of course, maybe shooting a bunch of .2" or .25" groups at 50 yards on a pleasant day with a Cooper, Finnfire or Rem 541-S isn't that great of an accomplishment given the quality of the guns.
I know I can't do it with my '63 Mountie, so it must be the guns, right?
John
I've shot some screaming groups, but I'm not good enough to do it time after time even using wind flags. Of course, maybe shooting a bunch of .2" or .25" groups at 50 yards on a pleasant day with a Cooper, Finnfire or Rem 541-S isn't that great of an accomplishment given the quality of the guns.
I know I can't do it with my '63 Mountie, so it must be the guns, right?
John
Firehand
Member
Dfaugh, I believe you. My daughter has one, and it's always been quite accurate with ammo it likes.
Wllm. Legrand
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Good groups? Humbug...(Not my actual choice of words, but ....)
I'm reminded of bench-rest shooting...a tangential stepchild to actual marksmanship, using rifles and equipment designed to take personal skill at arms out of the equation.
The question is, how good at shooting are you?
What can you do with:
1) one shot (nature and man rarely allow second shots)?
2) in improvised field positions (I know sitting on your butt on a concrete shooting bench helps things, especially with a rest, but I've rarely found such conditions in the field)?
3) under pressure of time (Maybe it's just me, but sometimes my quarry doesn't give me all the time in the world to make the best shot I could)?
4) in funky weather, wind, sun in your eyes (not like the north facing range), etc., etc....
5) and under pressure of the moment? (Try having a companion yell at you or shoot after you've run back 200 yards after posting a new target when you wind and pulse may be higher...)
I would wonder how many of you fellows actually USE a sling? Or practice improvised field positions? I'm sure some do, but....
Don't major in minors, and minor in majors.....
Just my opinon.....(worth what you paid for it...)
I'm reminded of bench-rest shooting...a tangential stepchild to actual marksmanship, using rifles and equipment designed to take personal skill at arms out of the equation.
The question is, how good at shooting are you?
What can you do with:
1) one shot (nature and man rarely allow second shots)?
2) in improvised field positions (I know sitting on your butt on a concrete shooting bench helps things, especially with a rest, but I've rarely found such conditions in the field)?
3) under pressure of time (Maybe it's just me, but sometimes my quarry doesn't give me all the time in the world to make the best shot I could)?
4) in funky weather, wind, sun in your eyes (not like the north facing range), etc., etc....
5) and under pressure of the moment? (Try having a companion yell at you or shoot after you've run back 200 yards after posting a new target when you wind and pulse may be higher...)
I would wonder how many of you fellows actually USE a sling? Or practice improvised field positions? I'm sure some do, but....
Don't major in minors, and minor in majors.....
Just my opinon.....(worth what you paid for it...)
How do you zip a *.doc file? I don't have a program that specifically zips files but does MS have one imbedded in one of their programs I can use? (I have the regular office suite for home.)
Oh, also, forgot to mention the modded 10/22 also has a Kid trigger in it.
M. Legrand,
if you think benchrest shooting eliminates the need for marksmanship, you need to read more. Naturally, every rifle on the line at a bench match will be superbly accurate, most being capable of making the proverbial one-hole-of-caliber-diameter group.....IF it weren't for the effects of wind, light, atmospheric changes, and shooter error. It takes as much skill and craftiness to win a bench match as it does to excel at offhand target or to shoot minute-of-water buffalo when charged.
if you think benchrest shooting eliminates the need for marksmanship, you need to read more. Naturally, every rifle on the line at a bench match will be superbly accurate, most being capable of making the proverbial one-hole-of-caliber-diameter group.....IF it weren't for the effects of wind, light, atmospheric changes, and shooter error. It takes as much skill and craftiness to win a bench match as it does to excel at offhand target or to shoot minute-of-water buffalo when charged.
Yeah , I am amazed at those who think that shooting from a rest implies you have no real skill at shooting. The military snipers you read about making their long range kills are doing it utilizing a resting position. Does that indicate they have no skill? Should they try their shots from a standing position to make things more fair? True, they were outstanding rifle marksman (shooting from all positions) before ever being chosen to become a sniper but the fact they utilize a rest must mean they have no skill.
If the benchrest game was so easy anyone just starting out would shoot groups as well as seasoned veterans. Try shooting a one hole group on a breezy gusty day.
If the benchrest game was so easy anyone just starting out would shoot groups as well as seasoned veterans. Try shooting a one hole group on a breezy gusty day.
Bah, Humbug back to you.Wllm. Legrand said:
For many of us (I think, but certainly for me), shooting from a bench rest is all about testing the rifle and ammunition, and is most definitely arranged to take as much as possible of the shooter out of the "equation".
Shooting from field positions is about testing the shooter, and is best done with a proven rifle shooting proven ammo.
It is my experience that people who belittle others' way of shooting are themselves limited in their skills, and in their understanding of shooting in general.
ford_shooter
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I haven't shot my 10/22 in a LONG time but when I did i would take out sparrows at bout 85 yards and shoot old light bulbs. I got really good at that.Never really shot a group so i don't know what my MOA would be
ford_shooter
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MOA=Minute of Angle, If i'm correct at 100 meters 1moa = 1in 2moa=2in and so on
Wllm. Legrand
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YodaVader said:
You miss the point.
The purpose of a benchrest is to take the human element out of the equation, as in "field marksmanship"; as in real world.
Your body is part of the shooting platform in real-world shooting...improvised field positions, standing, prone, squat, fist, etc.,....
Shooting with a REST is not the same thing as bench rest shooting. After all (to quote Cooper), "If you can get steadier, get more steady; if you can get closer, get closer."
Bench rest shooting has VERY LITTLE to do with in-the-field marksmanship. It's about the rifle, and the load, NOT about the shooter. And calling the wind drift is only one part of a number of essential variables. That's why using a bench, unless you are sighting in, or checking a change in load, is a WASTE OF TIME AND AMMUNITION, insofar as practice goes.
M. Legrand,
I think it is you who are missing the point. When all your competitors are using comparable equipment, the only residual variable is....the human element. Is it "harder" to shoot standing 3-inch 200 yard groups than it is to shoot 0.1" benched 200 yard groups? Assuredly not. And you surely don't mean that the high-power rifle competitor doesn't trick out his rifle until it looks like a space weapon, and measure every little variable about his handloads, and even wear special clothing when he shoots, right down to his boots and gloves? And that, when developing his handloads, he doesn't shoot from a bench?
I think you were trying to say that bench and target/field shooting are two different games, but you wound up saying that one is for real shooters and the other is for wimps.
I think it is you who are missing the point. When all your competitors are using comparable equipment, the only residual variable is....the human element. Is it "harder" to shoot standing 3-inch 200 yard groups than it is to shoot 0.1" benched 200 yard groups? Assuredly not. And you surely don't mean that the high-power rifle competitor doesn't trick out his rifle until it looks like a space weapon, and measure every little variable about his handloads, and even wear special clothing when he shoots, right down to his boots and gloves? And that, when developing his handloads, he doesn't shoot from a bench?
I think you were trying to say that bench and target/field shooting are two different games, but you wound up saying that one is for real shooters and the other is for wimps.
Shooting from a bench
I think testing from a bench, under near ideal conditions is important, I know it is for me...As mentioned, it eliminates alot of variables, so you can test the gun/ammo (and yourself as well, but maybe less so)...I want a gun to shoot as accurately as possible BECAUSE I know that in the field I won't be able to duplicate that accuracy level...But, knowing the gun is accurate(or how accurate it can be), gives you a boost in confidence, for one thing, and lets you judge what a "realistic" shot is gonna be in the field...
For example, knowing I can regularly shoot around an inch at 100 yards from the bench, means I'm comfortable shooting a crow at that distance from prone, with a rest...I WOULDN'T try shooting it offhand at that distance, because I know I've now exceeded the limits of me and the gun...But I probably would shoot offhand at 50 yards.
I think testing from a bench, under near ideal conditions is important, I know it is for me...As mentioned, it eliminates alot of variables, so you can test the gun/ammo (and yourself as well, but maybe less so)...I want a gun to shoot as accurately as possible BECAUSE I know that in the field I won't be able to duplicate that accuracy level...But, knowing the gun is accurate(or how accurate it can be), gives you a boost in confidence, for one thing, and lets you judge what a "realistic" shot is gonna be in the field...
For example, knowing I can regularly shoot around an inch at 100 yards from the bench, means I'm comfortable shooting a crow at that distance from prone, with a rest...I WOULDN'T try shooting it offhand at that distance, because I know I've now exceeded the limits of me and the gun...But I probably would shoot offhand at 50 yards.
Wllm. Legrand
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Khornet said:
One is based upon practical marksmanship and the other is NOT.
Marksmanship. MARKSMANSHIP!
Bench rest shooting is NOT about marksmanship. Different, yes...and it is not about doing what YOU can do with your gun, only about what a gun is possible under a tightly controlled set of parameters...but I repeat myself......
For that matter, shooting in service rifle matches (which is what I do on an irregular basis...) is not that much about it either, but is closer to the spirit of the goal. Fixed distances, specific positions, etc., are not what what encounters in the field. But it is closer than bench rest shooting. Neither is ISPC (acronym correct?) pistol shooting more than tantentially related to using the handgun as a defensive weapon.
They may be interesting SPORTS, but they lose something, some more than others, from the purpose of the exercise.
BTW, you might get an idea of your own skill by taking ONE shot, under pressure of time, an unknown distances, at a suitable target. That might give you some idea of how good a shooter you are. Maybe.
Benchrest? An interesting sport, but not real field marksmanship.
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