220 Swift or 22-250?
- Thread starter andym79
- Start date
- Status
It suddenly struck me....
Who makes those ?
22-250 Remington - 1 in 12 : Sako; Savage 110, 112; Thompson/Center Rifle
22-250 Remington - 1 in 14: Browning; Remington 700,788, 40-XB; Savage 99, 110, 112-V; H&R; Husqvarna; Ruger;
(as opposed to):
220 Swift - 1 in 12: Savage 112; Thompson/Center Rifle
220 Swift - 1 in 14: Winchester 70; Remington 700; Ruger 77; FN;
http://www.deltagunshop.com/clearwater_reboring/factory_twist_rates.html
Last edited:
ArchAngelCD
Member.
When I was looking for a varmint gun I was looking at all of the 22's and the .243. I told my LGS to keep an eye out for a used varmint gun for me. The gun that came along was a Howa 1500 in .223 and I was happy it was a .223 because of component availability.
Sure the faster 22's are exciting but where I live long shots are rare. I seriously don't need more than a .223 and once fired brass is much more available than the others. As luck will have it within weeks my LGS called me and told me they had another Howa 1500 but this time in 30-06. Since I can't pass up a good 30-06 and it would make my 2 gun hunting battery the same I bought that one too...
With my reloads the 30-06 will shoot .314" groups and the .223 will do just over .4" groups. Those are 2 very good hunting rifles and the pair cost me only $450.
MachIVshooter
Member
Kinda illustrates what the market is for both cartridges, doesn't it? People aren't buying either of them for long range target work with heavy-for-caliber bullets that require a fast twist. They were both designed around pushing 50-60 grain bullets at velocities approaching or slightly exceeding 4,000 FPS for the purpose of blowing vermin to pieces.
1:9 works well for .223, but you don't want a twist that fast (or faster) for driving 55's at 3,800+ FPS. Increases pressure, and some bullets won't hold together at 300,000+ RPM.
R.W.Dale
Member
Savage makes a couple as does someone else I believe
Example of one
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/12VLPDBM
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/12LRPVLEFTPORT
Example of one
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/12VLPDBM
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/12LRPVLEFTPORT
R.W.Dale
Member
Folks these days increasingly could care less about turning small furry animals into kibble with light short range "relatively" bullets.
HIGH ballistic coifecient and long range shooting are the order of the day and why you see the trend towards faster twists and more aerodynamic bullets
HIGH ballistic coifecient and long range shooting are the order of the day and why you see the trend towards faster twists and more aerodynamic bullets
Sav .250
Member
There are times when comparing weapons with limited categories , really doesn`t tell the whole story.
The end result is what ? Information gathered... goes into the round file.
The end result is what ? Information gathered... goes into the round file.
You might want to run the numbers on that.
A 77gr SMK (0.365BC) starting at 3,700** has a virtually identical point blank
(±5”) range as the 55gr BlitzKg (0.24BC) starting at 4,000, (at least so says Hornady)
http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator
http://www.sierrabullets.com/resources/ballistic-coefficients/
** I might note that both Alliant and Hodgdon/IMR say I can't even come close to that,
but I'm being charitable
Last edited:
R.W.Dale
Member
You're cherry picking.
Forget about trajectory and look at wind drift
At 400 yards a 77smk close to HALF the wind drift of a 55g blitzking. HALF
There's no amount of number cherry picking that will allow a 1-14 twist to compete with a 1-9 at extended ranges. If that were possible 1-12 twist AR's would still be the norm.
22 centerfires today are the dual purpose round for lots of folks that 243 was 20years ago. Part of what has made that possible is faster twists and higher BC and SD bullets that take advantage of that.
A 1-14" twist centerfire on the other hand is a one trick pony. Light fragile bullets at short to medium range.
Forget about trajectory and look at wind drift
At 400 yards a 77smk close to HALF the wind drift of a 55g blitzking. HALF
There's no amount of number cherry picking that will allow a 1-14 twist to compete with a 1-9 at extended ranges. If that were possible 1-12 twist AR's would still be the norm.
22 centerfires today are the dual purpose round for lots of folks that 243 was 20years ago. Part of what has made that possible is faster twists and higher BC and SD bullets that take advantage of that.
A 1-14" twist centerfire on the other hand is a one trick pony. Light fragile bullets at short to medium range.
Last edited:
R.W.Dale
Member
You should also be aware that the 75g A-max has a .435 BC
And which is it?
Earlier in the thread you were lauding not pushing high pressures and long throat life. Now you're shooting 4000fps barrel burners
Face it. In every single category the OP asked about the 22-250 either beats or completely matches what 220 offers
And which is it?
Earlier in the thread you were lauding not pushing high pressures and long throat life. Now you're shooting 4000fps barrel burners
Face it. In every single category the OP asked about the 22-250 either beats or completely matches what 220 offers
We're playing equal games/equal wear. And I'll run up and down the relative max
pressure scale with either cartridge/any bullet to compare point blank ranges using
the actual case volumes from above.
I'll compare real data at 95% MaxPress this evening with both bullets and look at
long range no-need-to-think trajectories. Right now, Hornady still says it's a wash
at 3700, but I'll get a better check on attaintable velocities with the 22-250/75_AMax.
pressure scale with either cartridge/any bullet to compare point blank ranges using
the actual case volumes from above.
I'll compare real data at 95% MaxPress this evening with both bullets and look at
long range no-need-to-think trajectories. Right now, Hornady still says it's a wash
at 3700, but I'll get a better check on attaintable velocities with the 22-250/75_AMax.
X-Rap
Member
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2006
- Messages
- 6,657
I've got both and wouldn't go out of my way to hunt down a 220 if I didn't need it to fill out a collection I've put together. With the guns I've got and the different applications there isn't enough difference in the 2 to matter except 22-250 brass is everywhere and 220 not so much.
R.W.Dale
Member
I own two 220 Swift rifles. One is a pre-64 Model 70 Winchester and the other is a Ruger 77 V flatboat with the Douglas barrel. I also own several 22-250's. With today's ballistic tip bullets the swift has not only the velocity edge over the 22-250 but also the downrange retained velocity. Both the Swift and the 22-250 are capable of stellar accuracy, especially when carefully hand loaded.
I'm a dedicated varmint and predator hunter and I wouldn't be without both the 22-250 and the 220 Swift in my varmint/predator hunting rifle battery. They're both fabulous cartridges.
I'm a dedicated varmint and predator hunter and I wouldn't be without both the 22-250 and the 220 Swift in my varmint/predator hunting rifle battery. They're both fabulous cartridges.
MachIVshooter
Member
What do you consider "medium range"? Furthest measured distance at which I've popped a praire dog with a 1:14" .220 was 782 yards. Many, many more have fallen to that rifle in the 400-600 range. That's with 55 gr. moly V-max @ 3,850. The rifle prints 10 shot .72 MOA 200 yard groups with that load.
Think a factory .22-250 with a 1:9 twist and 75+ gr bullets can do much better?
As well, if someone were that serious about making itty bitty long range groups with a .22 centerfire, all the advantages of the .22-250 (more rifle options, factory 1:9 rifles, more/cheaper factory ammo) are kaput anyway. Dude's gonna be using a custom barrel and hand loads.
Me? For accuracy work at ranges exceeding 500 yards, I'm not using any .224 cal. Far better choices in 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm and .30 cal.
I just don't see that. For one, a lot of states do not allow medium/big game hunting with <.244 cal. And in terms of sales, the only .224" cartridge that exceeds .243 win is the .223; there's an obvious reason for that.
More to the point, anyone doing accuracy work with .22 centerfires is either playing with .223 (typically in an AR), or they've moved into .22 BR or .22 PPC. Nobody who is serious about it is using the .22-250, .220 Swift or any of the other cartridges that are and always have been varmint rounds. I don't recall hearing of any matches won or accuracy records set with a .22-250.
Both are varmint/predator cartridges. That's what they were designed for, what they have spent decades on end being primarily used for, and it's what most of the factory rifles are tailored to. The 40XB is about the only precision target rifle I know of that comes in .22-250. But then, it can also be had in .220 Swift......
1948CJ2A
Member
This is turning into an exhausting thread.
In modern firearms, all things equal, which rarely happens BTW... additional case capacity is going to yield higher velocities. In true overbore cartridges the returns may be minimal but present. Neither of these cartridges in question are overbore.
It seems like a lot of folks try and marginalize performance data (ie: "50-100 fps is negligible and these might as well be the same cartridge", OR "the animal can't tell the difference", etc.). You know what, those are somewhat valid statements.
But if you are like me, and you don't mind folks telling you you're splitting hairs, you appreciate those slight improvements like the Swift over the 22-250. Or for that matter, the 224 TTH over the Swift. Of course all this assumes you're a handloader or know someone who does.
I don't shoot my collection enough these days to really warrant the argument against throat and barrel erosion. If I did, I'd probably just use my 223 all the time.
I see these threads over and over. Heck I started one years back on the 7x57 vs 7-08. I've seen them recently on the 6mm vs 243. The one that seems to really bug me is the 30-06 vs 308.
Regardless, at the end of the day either of these cartridges are a fine choice. I prefer the Swift like I said previously even though I don't own one and do own a 22-250. That said I am tolerant and respectful of others opinions. Just don't mix opinions with facts. The 220 Swift has more capacity than the 22-250. End of discussion.
In modern firearms, all things equal, which rarely happens BTW... additional case capacity is going to yield higher velocities. In true overbore cartridges the returns may be minimal but present. Neither of these cartridges in question are overbore.
It seems like a lot of folks try and marginalize performance data (ie: "50-100 fps is negligible and these might as well be the same cartridge", OR "the animal can't tell the difference", etc.). You know what, those are somewhat valid statements.
But if you are like me, and you don't mind folks telling you you're splitting hairs, you appreciate those slight improvements like the Swift over the 22-250. Or for that matter, the 224 TTH over the Swift. Of course all this assumes you're a handloader or know someone who does.
I don't shoot my collection enough these days to really warrant the argument against throat and barrel erosion. If I did, I'd probably just use my 223 all the time.
I see these threads over and over. Heck I started one years back on the 7x57 vs 7-08. I've seen them recently on the 6mm vs 243. The one that seems to really bug me is the 30-06 vs 308.
Regardless, at the end of the day either of these cartridges are a fine choice. I prefer the Swift like I said previously even though I don't own one and do own a 22-250. That said I am tolerant and respectful of others opinions. Just don't mix opinions with facts. The 220 Swift has more capacity than the 22-250. End of discussion.
R.W.Dale
Member
But capacity ISNT the whole story.
22-250 is rated for 5000 psi more pressure. Something that I don't think a meager 7% more capicity is going to overcome.
This is an assertion that more modern pressure test data backs up
Of all the cartridge comparisons you mention above 22-250 v 220 requires the most hair splitting to come up with any actual performance difference.
For bullet versatility, firearm selection, brass and ammo availability 22-250 wins handily
22-250 is rated for 5000 psi more pressure. Something that I don't think a meager 7% more capicity is going to overcome.
This is an assertion that more modern pressure test data backs up
Of all the cartridge comparisons you mention above 22-250 v 220 requires the most hair splitting to come up with any actual performance difference.
For bullet versatility, firearm selection, brass and ammo availability 22-250 wins handily
If you reload 220 swift is just cool to own. I don't hand load and used to own a swift. My favorite rifle ever. When I traded it I got a 250 because in the Hornady varmint express the 55 grain 250 was the exact same fps as the swift 55 grain at $3 a box cheaper.
1948CJ2A
Member
I said in modern firearms where all things are equal.
The Swift is a very old cartridge much like the 7x57 Mauser (though not quite that old). SAAMI pressure ratings are lower on these cartridges because of safety concerns in older firearms that couldn't handle more modern pressure (ie: the Model 95 and 96 Mauser receivers).
If all things are equal including the pressures AND for safety in modern firearms, capacity IS the story with regards to cartridge performance.
R.W.Dale
Member
I'll buy that even if it's predicated on something that's seldom the case.
I prefer to respect SAAMI pressure guidelines. PARTICULARILY when dealing with a case family with no higher upper limit to reference.
For example we know what the .473" case head family can handle simply by observing what more modern rounds have as a pressure ceiling.
But what about the 6mm lee navy, 220 swift family of semi rimmed rounds?
I prefer to respect SAAMI pressure guidelines. PARTICULARILY when dealing with a case family with no higher upper limit to reference.
For example we know what the .473" case head family can handle simply by observing what more modern rounds have as a pressure ceiling.
But what about the 6mm lee navy, 220 swift family of semi rimmed rounds?
3,000 psi (not 5,000psi) difference
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/specifications/Velocity_Pressure_CfR.pdf
62,000(Swift) vs 65,000(22-250) -- 5% pressure advantage to the 22-250
50gr WaterVolume (Swift) vs 45gr (22-250) -- 11% volume advantage to the Swift. (and QuickLoad confirms the 150fps velocity advantage even with the pressure disadvantage)
as far as a fast 1-9 twist being standard fare for the 22-250, we've seen only one maker out of eight -- Savage -- who offers that, and that with a $1,500 pricetag. For that price, I can buy a new FN-made Winchester Model-70 in 243, throw the barrel away to replace with a 1-9 twist Krieger 220Swift and be $200 ahead. Every other manufactuer uses identical Swift twists.
As far as brass availability, I've already show MidSouth having it, and Midway going to have in in 3 weeks. I'm also still using brass I got as far back as the late 60s -- How ofter do you need to buy new brass for a bolt action? This isn't like an AR or an AK where brass flies everywhere and hides under the nearest cabbage leaf every time out hunting.
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/specifications/Velocity_Pressure_CfR.pdf
62,000(Swift) vs 65,000(22-250) -- 5% pressure advantage to the 22-250
50gr WaterVolume (Swift) vs 45gr (22-250) -- 11% volume advantage to the Swift. (and QuickLoad confirms the 150fps velocity advantage even with the pressure disadvantage)
as far as a fast 1-9 twist being standard fare for the 22-250, we've seen only one maker out of eight -- Savage -- who offers that, and that with a $1,500 pricetag. For that price, I can buy a new FN-made Winchester Model-70 in 243, throw the barrel away to replace with a 1-9 twist Krieger 220Swift and be $200 ahead. Every other manufactuer uses identical Swift twists.
As far as brass availability, I've already show MidSouth having it, and Midway going to have in in 3 weeks. I'm also still using brass I got as far back as the late 60s -- How ofter do you need to buy new brass for a bolt action? This isn't like an AR or an AK where brass flies everywhere and hides under the nearest cabbage leaf every time out hunting.
R.W.Dale
Member
Did you look at the SAAMI test velocities for the two rounds. THEY ARE VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL. The widest velocity spread SAAMI observed was 65fps with 40g bullets. Heavier bullets were identical. If there's a performance difference in the two rounds it's far far smaller than the normal barrel to barrel velocity spread you find betwixt different guns
SAAMI test data trumps your quickload and we already established as little as a 7% capicity difference MEASURED not googled
As to 1-9 22-250 availability savage makes more different configurations of that than you can get factory 220 swifts from EVERYONE ELSE
And we haven't even began to discuss factory ammo availability and offerings
220 swift either loses or is matched by 22-250 on every count the OP asks about
SAAMI test data trumps your quickload and we already established as little as a 7% capicity difference MEASURED not googled
As to 1-9 22-250 availability savage makes more different configurations of that than you can get factory 220 swifts from EVERYONE ELSE
And we haven't even began to discuss factory ammo availability and offerings
220 swift either loses or is matched by 22-250 on every count the OP asks about
Last edited:
Well heck
In terms of Velocity, accuracy, efficiency and cost to run, the Honda Civic is the best choice for a car.
But in terms of accuracy (identical), velocity (Swift wins), efficiency (250 wins), cost-t0-run (Swift might still win if barrel replacement is thrown in there because the higher-pressure 250 is burning up the throat with significantly higher pressures for the same bullet/velocity.)
By the way -- did you note that the Swift was getting those "virtually identical" velocities for less pressure?
Bottom line is: If I'm reloading, the Swift is more flexible/lower systems stress when compared to the 250 for identical performance.
If I'm not reloading, I'd probably get a 243 -- which I actually did way-back-when I was young & poor.
.
In terms of Velocity, accuracy, efficiency and cost to run, the Honda Civic is the best choice for a car.
But in terms of accuracy (identical), velocity (Swift wins), efficiency (250 wins), cost-t0-run (Swift might still win if barrel replacement is thrown in there because the higher-pressure 250 is burning up the throat with significantly higher pressures for the same bullet/velocity.)
By the way -- did you note that the Swift was getting those "virtually identical" velocities for less pressure?
Bottom line is: If I'm reloading, the Swift is more flexible/lower systems stress when compared to the 250 for identical performance.
If I'm not reloading, I'd probably get a 243 -- which I actually did way-back-when I was young & poor.
.
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked