.223 1 in 8" Help!!

[farmer7]

Hey folks,
I bought a Tikka T3 varmint in .223 last year,1 in 8 twist, I have put 1000 rounds of handloads through it now, but my best group has only JUST beaten 1" at 100 yards,a little disappointed! The bullets i have tried are : 50gr Hornady SX, 50gr Ballistic tips, 55gr Ballistic tips, 50gr TNT's, 52gr Speer hp's, 55gr V-max moly, 70gr speer semi-spitzer. I didn't know at the time,but i now believe with a 1 in 8 twist barrel i am supposed to get better results with heavier bullets. Is that correct? Any suggestions on what to try next? Dont really want to go heavier than 70gr. Also i live in a fairly remote part of Scotland and am kinda limited to what i can get my hands on powder wise. I have a few pounds of varget just now. So can anybody help me with a good load (using Varget!!) with say a 69gr sierra matchking? Am i destined to not be able to fire the lighter bullets accurately with a 1 in 8"? Or could it be I just have a bad rifle???? Any help would be greatly received!!!

 

[mc223]

You might try 26g Varget with a 60g V-Max bullet. Or perhaps 25g Varget with a 75 A-Max.

 

[Walkalong]

Ditto on Varget and the 60 Gr. V max. That should shoot well. I can get it to stabilize in an old .222 Mag, but must push it pretty hard.

Is your barrel clean? You have shot it a good bit. With the 8in1 twist the 50 & 55 Gr. bullets are not the best choice. 60 and up should do better for you. I am not sure where the bullet wieght would be to much. Others here can tell you.

 

[Sharps Shooter]

Hi Farmer and welcome to the forum!
I don't have any advice that would help you out, although I'm sure there are plenty of other members of THR who do. However, I have a question - when you wrote you're only getting 1" groups at 100 yards, how many shots are you talking about? Three shots in an inch at 100 yards is about the best my .223 will do with factory "remanufactured" ammo, which is all I shoot in that rifle. I'd be more than pleased with five shots in an inch at 100 yards.

 

[DogBonz]

Welcome to THR

Yes, with a 1:8, you should get better results with heavier bullets. If you can get your hands on them out there, try Berger VLD's. The Match Kings should be nice too.

 

[Ol` Joe]

I wouldn`t worry about the twist too much. I shoot a 1/9 twist Win M70 HV and the best load I have for it is with the 52 gr Sierra HP. The heavier bullets will fly better from the faster twist then they will with a slower one but lighter bullets should do almost if not as well. I have a buddy that has used 55 gr MKs in a AR with a 1/7 twist. I don`t believe you can over spin a bullet. Spin is used to stabilize the bullet and as long as the bullet is spun fast enough to stabilize more twist won`t hurt. You may spin one enough to get it to come apart though (Speer TnT is a weak jacketed bullet known to do this in fast twists or very high velocities) but that is a different problem IMO.
Have you took one bullet and varied the COL to see if the rifle has a "sweet spot" that it prefers the bullet seated to? I would play with one bullet and vary COL after working up a max load and see if accuracy gets better, then try other bullets seated to the same distance from the lands and see if the rifle has a wgt or bullet preferance.

 

[farmer7]

Thanks very much for the advice guys,what a useful site this is! Where i live most folks know very little about reloading,just gotta learn by trial and error!!

Walkalong, I clean the barrel maybe every 30-40 rounds,when you say i've shot it quite a bit, how long can i expect my barrel to last with 55gr loads at 3200fps or so?

Hi sharps shooter,the best it will do, if i'm lucky is an inch with 3 shot groups. I can shoot ok, my 25-06 Sendero will put 85gr ballistic tips into little ragged one-hole groups of 1/4 inch or so centre to centre.

What kind of bullet is the Berger VLD, varmint?? Anyway, thanks for the help everyone!

 

[farmer7]

Hey Ol'Joe, i have played around with the seating depth but with little success, also the magazine on the Tikka will not let me seat some of the bullets out as far as i'd like and single loading is not practical for me. Thanks for the advice.

 

[ocabj]

For 100 yard line, try flat base 50-55gr match bullets.

After that, try a 77gr BTHP. Sierra and Nosler are the most common. Berger just released a 77gr BTHP. You can also try the Hornady 75gr BTHP.

Or you could go with the VLD flavors like the Hornady 75gr A-Max or Berger 77/80 VLD. Or a Sierra 80gr. From what I understand, these won't fit in the Tikka magazine from what another poster stated, so you'll have to single feed these (like us AR shooters do).

 

[farmer7]

Thanks ocabj, the magazine thing sucks really, i dont know what they were thinking,giving me a 1in8 barrel with a stupid wee magazine. I have to seat any of the heavier bullets deep. I wish i could have an AR, would give the vermin round here a shock! Sadly our gun laws SUCK!!

 

[tikkat3]

I too have a 1-8" twist T3. 55gr V-MAX shot pretty well through it over 25.3gr H335 (as good as 0.38" groups). The heavier 75gr A-MAX also shoot well under 24.2gr Varget. Here I have been getting groups of between 0.373" and 0.737".

I shoot from a bipod with sandbags under the stock on a Land Rover bonnet - not the most stable of surfaces. Despite this (and the occasional - regular - shooter-induced flyer) the groups are not bad.

As far as the poxy magazine is concerned, the Tikka ones are easily modified with a Dremmel and a bit of SuperGlue or epoxy resin. I have done it and have the capacity to load rounds slightly in excess of 2.5" (own lands give a COL of about 2.485"). Look at this link for a good description of how to mofify the magazine to take longer rounds. http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168586&highlight=tikkat3 / post #15)

 

[OlderFox]

I've got the same rifle. Purchased 2 yrs ago. Normal groups are 0.3-0.4 at 100.

My load is 55gn Win Bulk PS bullet over 20.6 gn of IMR4198 with Federal non-match primer.

Cheers

 

[billp]

.223 history

Some .223 history from speer manuals.



http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/speermanuals/19662.jpg

http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/speermanuals/19871.jpg

http://www.prosefights.org/funpics/thr/speermanuals/19872.jpg

Prototype 55 gr v-max and ss109 62.1 gr bullets continue to work great through stevens 200 [NO PRIMERS!].

We're now ready to load both to check for pressue with VARGET.

ss109 44 to 46 gr at .2 gr increments.

55 gr v-max 45 to 47 at .2 gr increments.

We're SUPER-SENSITIVE about pressure after suffering a .22-250 disaster in the 1970s. So we'll test for pressure first.

Oh, the 1966 speer manual was bought at the while elephant in spokane, wa in about 1967.

The 1987 speer manual was bought in albuquerque, nm.

regards from senior

 

[Hutch]

I wonder if the moly bullets have left some residue even yet in the barrel. Why don'tcha clean it very aggressively with Sweet's 7.62 and JB Bore Paste, and then go thru the break-in process again. I did that with a Remmy 700VS in .308 that wouldn't hold 'em in a coffee can at 100yds, and was able to get half-inch groups thereafter.

 

[billp]

varget in .223

We haven't tried varget in .223 yet. But we are about ready.

Varget is advertised to get about 3384 fps using 27.5 gr with 55 gr spr pt, win case, win sr primer, C.O.L. 2.200.



We are moving ahead slowly.

I am very concerned about pressure v temperature since in albuquerque average high temperatures range from about 46 F to 92 F. Lows during the winter are in the 20 F range.

 

[Walkalong]

Walkalong, I clean the barrel maybe every 30-40 rounds,when you say i've shot it quite a bit, how long can i expect my barrel to last with 55gr loads at 3200fps or so?

I only meant a lot if you had not cleaned. Some folks just don't do it enough. We get match winning accuracy from a Benchrest barrel for 3000 to maybe 4000 rounds, but they will still shoot great by all other standards for 1000's more.

Normal groups are 0.3-0.4 at 100.

You ought to be at matches beating our eyes out if you can do that consistently without flags or anything and bulk bullets. Try shooting 5 timed, 5 shot groups all in a row in all conditions and avg. them together. Then you will know what you and your rifle can do.

 

[farmer7]

Thanks very much for that link tikkat3, i will try it, i just wish they had had the common sense to do it themselves! I have 55gr v-max moly, accuracy-wise, would you expect them to shoot the same as non-moly? If so i will chuck the moly ones and get the non-moly - i hate cleaning after moly coated bullets! I actually managed two 5 shot 3/4" groups today with the moly v-max and 27.3 varget and , so hopefully with some fine tuning i can improve it.

Hutch i WILL throw the moly bullets as far away as i can and clean the barrel very throughly!!! Thanks for the advice. Thanks also walkalong, useful to know.

 

[farmer7]

Walkalong, you sound like you would know a bit being in benchrest. Can you tell me how far the 55gr v-max is likely to stay stable? I presume the 69gr sierras will stay stable further???

Also, if i get on well with the sierra matchkings, does anyone know of their performance on vermin, i know it is not designed for that being a target bullet, but i just WONDERED being an HP would it do for say foxes and crows. Or is it inhumane????

 

[P-32]

SMK's do have a hollow point. They have a hollow point because of the way the jacket is drawn, not because they are meant to expand on impact.

I don`t believe you can over spin a bullet. Spin is used to stabilize the bullet and as long as the bullet is spun fast enough to stabilize more twist won`t hurt. You may spin one enough to get it to come apart though (Speer TnT is a weak jacketed bullet known to do this in fast twists or very high velocities) but that is a different problem IMO.

I have lost points due to exploding bullets as they fly towards the target. I admit this was a 308 168 SMK some years back.

I also load 223 for a match tuned AR which has a very tight twist, 6 1/2 to 1. I got this twist in order to shoot 90 gr. SMK's at a 1000 but it's not going to happen any time soon.

My AR likes everything from 52 gr SMK's to 80 gr SMK's. I use Reloader 15 for powder and Remington 7 1/2's to start things off. Varget is a good powder too, but I understand Reloader 15 is made in Scottland under another name. 77's loaded to mag length are a favorite. The 80's are loaded long and are loaded one at a time.

I have also found primers can effect group size. Trying different primers is a must. You should be able to get the good German primers there easier than we can.

I hate cleaning moly as well. I shoot non moly bullets in my AR. Good luck, I would think the Tikka should be shooting tighter groups as well. Might want to do some deep cleaning and remove the copper.

 

[farmer7]

Thanks for that P32, good to be able to speak some folks who know something!

With your AR and the 1 in 6 1/2" do you have to keep the velocity down with the light bullets to prevent bullet break-up??

Also i didn't know that about the RL15, do you know what it is called over here? Thanks for the help.

 

[Walkalong]

If you have the right twist/velocity it will stabilize your bullet. This can all be looked up. If your bullet is stabilized at the start it will generally stay so throughout its flight. Longer and farther than most of us shoot. The High Power guys or the 1000 yard Benchrest guys can tell you all you need to know about that. In benchrest we shoot 100 and 200 yards mostly. We use barrels with the slowest twist that will stabilize our bullets because it is easier on the bullets and the tend to fly straighter. The manufacture's use a twist to stabilize the heaviest bullet they reasonably think you will use and will be spinning the lighter ones faster than necessary to stabilize them.

 

[billp]

whoops. Another senior citizen mistake. I apologize.

Let me try to get the speer manual .233 jpgs to you correctly.









Some of us senior citizens have too many project going on simultaneously.

Like our genocide project.

 

[farmer7]

Thanks very much for the info and the effort Billip!!! Appreciated.

 

[taliv]

farmer, for the common things that make rifles shoot a little less accurately,

have you played with the seating depth on your existing loads?
have you checked the throat for erosion?
have you checked your crown for damage from cleaning or something?
are you storing your powder properly?
prepping your brass?


in any event, i'd recommend the 69g SMK and varget. it's pretty much the gold standard in high power competition.

 

[Mr. Two Guns]

I have a 1 in 8 LAR-15 and I've had good luck with both 69 grain SMK's and Hornady 68 grain HPBT match rounds. I used Varget in both with 23.5 grains pushing the 68 grain and 23 pushing the 69 grain. Both loads shot under one inch at 100 yards.