.223/5.56: bolts v AR -- ballistics and rifle choice decision

[AStone]

^ According to this article, that's correct.

The premier cartridge in the early 1950s, when varminting and benchrest got started and began revving up, was the .222 Remington. Introduced, in 1950, in the Remington 722, it was superbly accurate, and the rifle was also a brilliant out-of-the-box shooter. The mild recoil would not cause a benchrest shooter to have aiming problems, and the mild report, efficient powder charges and low bore erosion made it a useful varmint cartridge.

 

[goon]

Picked that up in a Speer reloading manual... I think.

 

[AStone]

Can't quit looking at this image.



The pistol grip and fore end remind me of a reptile,
and the scope rail reminds me of a razor back.

I'll bet I smooth up my grips with some fine grit sand paper.

Question: could a bayonet be threaded onto those barrel threads?

Seems I've read something about a bayonet, or was that on an AR-556?

In any case, broadening the question: are there bayonet mounts
that will screw onto a suppressor mount?
I know it's a long shot, but ...

I'll explain later why I ask.
(Relates to my interest in blades and hog hunting.)

 

[Jeff White]

A bayonet needs a lug on the barrel to lock into. They used to make a clamp on bayonet lug for the Mini 14, perhaps you could make one work if the barrel was the right diameter for the ring on the bayonet.

Of course you are going to really mess up the harmonics of the barrel by mounting a bayonet and your zero would likely change a lot with the bayonet mounted v. unmounted.

Then there is the danger of bending the barrel if you actually bayoneted a hog or something.

You won't have any better luck with a 16 inch barrel on an AR because the bayonet lug on the bottom of the gas block will be too far from the flash hider for a bayonet to reach.

Even though the AR is meant to take a bayonet you need either a standard 20" or a 14.5" barrel to make it fit and your zero will be different with it mounted and unmounted.

 

[TwoEyedJack]

I have three rifles in .223. They each fill a niche. In order of rounds per year:

Ruger #1V single shot. My primary varmint rifle. Stupid easy to clean, maintain. Very finicky but deadly with loads it likes, which have to be neck sized, so handloads only.

Tikka T3 lite. Very smooth, accurate with just about any non-steel cased round, light to carry, primary predator rifle. Smoothest barrel I have ever had the pleasure of cleaning.

PSA AR-15, 20" FN 1:7. Fun for plinking and target practice with iron sights. Mine puts 9 shots in 1.25" at 100 yards from a good rest with the iron sights with several loads. I have a scope for it for predator hunting, but the Tikka is so much lighter that the AR more often than not gets left home.

If I could only have one it would probably be the Tikka.

 

[AStone]

Jeff and Jack, good points. Thanks.

Jack, I'll look at that Tikka.

ETA: Tikka T3 lite.

Beautiful rifle. Maybe someday. Right now, not in my budget.

 

[goon]

With a midlength you can mount a bayonet and use a 16" barrel. Midlengths are also easier on moving parts and a better balanced gas system than a carbine 14.5" or 16". You have to have a permanent flash suppressor or SBR the rifle to have a 14.5" anyhow, so by the time you're done, might as well go with the 16".

But anything clamped on or pressing against the barrel definitely can shift the zero. I've seen it shift by 5" at 100 yards from that. Of course, bayonet range is a lot closer than that...

 

[lysanderxiii]

Question: could a bayonet be threaded onto those barrel threads?

There are flash hiders with bayonet lugs attached to them. But, alas, not for the AR....

Then there is the danger of bending the barrel if you actually bayoneted a hog or something.

You are not going to permanently deform a barrel poking something with a bayonet.

The bayonet will break first.

You won't have any better luck with a 16 inch barrel on an AR because the bayonet lug on the bottom of the gas block will be too far from the flash hider for a bayonet to reach.

One of the side benefits of the mid-length gas system. The bayonet lugs is close enough to the muzzle that a bayonet fits.

 

[Jeff White]

You are not going to permanently deform a barrel poking something with a bayonet.

You obviously have not done a lot of bayonet training. We always drew "rubber ducks" from TASC to use during bayonet training so we wouldn't break our M16s.

You won't bend the barrel so you can see it visually, but I can guarantee you that you can bend it enough that a barrel straightness gage will hang up and the weapon will have to have a new barrel.

One of the serviceability checks on an M16 (annually or before overseas deployment) is to drop a barrel straightness gage, which is basically a 6 inch length of tool steel the exact diameter of a bullet through the bore. If it hangs up at all, the barrel is bent and unserviceable.

 

[Reloadron]

As to the 5.56 versus 223 topic:

Which Ammo or Chamber Should I Buy?

It’s a good idea to have an understanding of all of the factors regarding this issue – and what you will use the rifle for – and make a purchase based on this knowledge. With that in mind, here are my thoughts on the four chamberings I’ve discussed in this article.

.223 Remington – Because it’s the only SAAMI standardized cartridge, it’s the only one you’re likely to find used in rifles produced by major manufacturers. I would prefer any of the other three to “regular .223.” However, you will not be at a huge disadvantage as long as you buy mostly .223 ammo. As stated above, you are not likely to encounter major problems with limited amounts of 5.56 in a .223 rifle fired out of necessity or in an emergency. Doing so at a high volume for the long term is probably not a good idea. In terms of a carbine-style AR-15, I see absolutely no reason to purchase one with a .223 Remington chamber.

.223 Wylde – Produced by a variety of smaller manufacturers, .223 Wylde can be an excellent choice if it is executed properly. I have personally had overpressure issues with improperly reamed .223 Wylde chambers. I’ve also had excellent accuracy and no pressure signs with 5.56 from properly reamed .223 Wylde chambers. As always, buying a quality product is often the best way to go.

5.56mm Noveske Match Mod 0 – Similar in concept to .223 Wylde in that it attempts to strike a balance between pressure and accuracy, it has the advantage of being produced only by Noveske, a shop known for precision and attention to detail. All of the Noveske barrels I’ve owned – about a dozen – have delivered accuracy, precision, and safe, reliable function. This comes at a price, for Noveske barrels are not cheap.

5.56mm NATO – The best bet for those looking to shoot high volumes of 5.56mm ammunition without an emphasis on tack-driving accuracy or precision, 5.56 barrels from reliable machine shops will outshoot most humans while also keeping pressures within normal limits. Cheap 5.56 barrels often disappoint.

Summary: Buy a well-made rifle with the chamber you want based on your needs, shoot the right ammo in it, and have fun. For most people, especially those not sure of what type of shooting they’ll be doing, a 5.56mm chamber is the best all-around choice. It is my fervent hope that this article has helped you better understand the topic at hand.

While there are dozens of written articles on the subject I like the one linked above. The author makes a good case with his findings. Overall what I see as a good read.

Bayonet? You can mount a bayonet on just about any rifle with a good design plan and a good machinist. The question becomes if you really want to do that? I would heed the words of Jeff:

Of course you are going to really mess up the harmonics of the barrel by mounting a bayonet and your zero would likely change a lot with the bayonet mounted v. unmounted.

Given a choice I would choose a good hunting knife in a sheath on my waist over a bayonet and scabbard. However, your choice.

Ron

 

[AStone]

I'm reading more great info this morning (afternoon actually) posted since I logged off last night. Thanks to you all. Ron, that's the most detailed summary of differences in the various flavors of 223 and 556 I've seen. I've read it, later will study it. (Super busy day for me.)

Now that we're clear on bayonet issues, I'll also explain (later) what I had in mind, but probably will not do.

 

[ozygreg]

223 tikka the best

in Australia a tikka or howa most popular affordably accurate rifle for most hunters .
the t3 tikka is the better . as long action bolts smooth as, the howa is just a step under
but still as good , the tikka is good on factory ammo , the howa is better on loaded ammo ,
i prefer the heaver varmint barrels as i can hold it steadier ,to shoot , some people say there to heavy
. so take 2 lbs. out of you pack , . we do not use a lot of semi autos as we head shoot 1 shoot only ,
bolt action i think , is more accurate , and to much damage to the meat if you put 20 bullets into a rabbit
my loads for the howa or tikka we have not been able to load it any better , but the tikka good choice ,
i got my tikka stock from tikka performance in the states , perfect stock ,no beeding requred at all ,
Ozygreg

 

[AStone]

Haven't lost interest here. Just up to my ears packing to move across the continent later this week. (Moving by shipping some stuff that's been stored here, but I'm flying.)

I'm putting a LOT of stuff up for sale that I don't need any longer, and if it all sells at a reasonable price, I'll have enough to (first) buy some needed camping gear, and if there's a bit left over, maybe buy a .223. We'll see.

For now, I'll comment on this as I munch on beer/cheese soup with an IPA, watching game 5 of the series. (Mets' up by 1.)

Now that we're clear on bayonet issues, I'll also explain (later) what I had in mind, but probably will not do.

OK, don't laugh too hard about this, or take it too seriously. It was just an idea, and even then I knew it wasn't necessarily a good idea, but was curious.

Since boars are prone to charge, I had the thought about having a bayonet mounted on the front end of the rifle as a last resort. I've practiced stick martial arts of various kinds for decades. I've learned a couple of techniques to stop grapplers from going low to take me down. My favorite involves two handed grip that goes down on the back of the neck, but one involves downward jab with a bo staff (or my version thereof).

So, I thought, gee, could that work as a last resort, especially when using a bolt action rifle (not a semi) so a second shot isn't possible, to have a bayonet mounted for a jab. Unlikely to be effective given thick hog hide and tough hogs. But there are those who hunt boar with spears, so who knows.

Like I said, just a curious thought. Nothing too serious.

 

[HKGuns]

Wow, this thread is making a really simple subject extremely complex.

AR's are not difficult to clean, they are among the simplest rifles to clean.

AR's are probably fine for deer as long as you use a heavy (77gr TSX), proper bullet. This assumes you can shoot and will take high percentage shots, otherwise the margin of error will likely leave you tracking.

Based on your posts in this thread, get a 30-30 lever action and call it a day.

 

[goon]

I'd have to agree that a 30-30 or something pushing a heavier bullet would be preferable for deer farther north. The farther north you go, the bigger the deer get. If I had to use a .223, I'd only take head shots. A bolt action 7mm-08 or .308 would also make me personally more comfortable.

But the guy asked about .223's, so that's what at talked about.

 

[Gtscotty]

Well if he's moving to FL, I don't think he's going to have to worry about coming across too many giant deer.... .223 will probably do the job on German Shepard sized FL deer.

 

[AStone]

Thanks, guys. First off, I own a .30-30 (click on ".30-30" in my sig line), and love it. Yes, it'll be my main deer and hog rifle. It'll be my only deer rifle in Maine.

But Scotty said it before I did: It's likely that I'll spend about equal time in Florida and Maine for the next few years -- not sure yet, but could shape up that way. In Florida, average deer sizes south of the peninsula are 120 lb (buck) to 80 lb (doe). One of the new .223 hunting bullets with careful shot placement and short range along with care to not take a foolish shot is probably sufficient. I can guarantee I won't take foolish shots. That's part of why I've never killed a deer -- I had shots that I wasn't confident of and passed on them.

As for making things harder than it has to be in this thread, you guys wouldn't have anything to do if we made it easy.

 

[AStone]

Here's a useful thread on .223 hunting bullets.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=791412