.223/5.56: bolts v AR -- ballistics and rifle choice decision

[Jenrick]

Second building the lower and buying the upper if you want to build. You can build a lower on your couch, with simple hand tools you can buy at Walmart. An upper requires a few more specialized tools, and in general some kind of shop area to make it simple. We build uppers at work with reasonable frequency, and it takes some practice to do it well and a good set of tools to make it go smoothly. If you can assemble Lego's then you can build a lower.

-Jenrick

 

[d2wing]

This is already an interesting and helpful thread. Thanks, guys. My thoughts are being provoked.

I'm going to have to keep track of recommendations. (Maybe I should have made this a pole: bolt v AR; oh, well.)

Re .223 v .30-30 for anything, yes, I agree with WWalker: the latter will be superior. No question.

But from what I'm reading, some of the (relatively newer) .223 for hunting ammo really increases the sufficiency of .223 for hunting deer. I'll post some links later. (Heading downstairs to the tavern right now; about 40 taps of craft beer down there, and it's Friday evening. )

I've even read this article a couple of times that claims .223 does a better job on hogs (all but the monsters) than .45-70. That's sure to be controversial around here, but it's an interesting point. Here's a quote from it.

The post about the .223 being better than a slug reflects my experiences with deer as well. I have seen deer soak up 3-4 slugs and still having to track them up to a mile. One was a doe 2 guys each shot twice. When I found her she was alive and I had to finish her with my revolver. Not an isolated example. In constrast I have shot several deer including a 250 lb 14 point buck with a .223. The .223 is plenty for Florida deer, Maine deer, like here you have to pick angles and chose bullets carefully. The energy of a soft point blows up the lungs into mush. Contrary to what quacks say, it is properly applied energy that kills.
Don't get me started on a popular quack that claims every scientist is a fraud, every study is fake, very gun writer a liar and he has no actual qualifications, no verifiable experiments or anything but his word that reflects poor knowledge of ballistics.

 

[d2wing]

Pick what you want. I have used AR's to hunt and decided I prefer bolt rifle because they you can change hand positions easier and are lighter and less bulky, you also have to control noise. But still they work pretty well.

 

[eldon519]

Don't get me started on a popular quack that claims every scientist is a fraud, every study is fake, very gun writer a liar and he has no actual qualifications, no verifiable experiments or anything but his word that reflects poor knowledge of ballistics.

Is this yet another thread you are gonna wade into and repeat the terms "quacks" and "ballistic scientists" over and over again without managing to make any kind of concrete statements?

 

[adcoch1]

Others have said it but if you go the ar15 route, buy an upper already assembled from a reputable company (model 1 sales has a lot of LmT stuff and it is very high quality for low price) and buy a stripped lower and build it up. The last ar15 my bro-in-law put together cost him under $500 and it drives tacks. I have also been looking for a mid-cal bolt gun and the Ruger looks pretty good, so does the mossburg. Shipping an ar15 thru certain airports can get you in lots of trouble I hear though, so the bolt gun might just be less hassle. My .02

 

[AStone]

The last ar15 my bro-in-law put together cost him under $500 and it drives tacks.

wow, that's interesting. Will check out Model 1.

 

[goon]

IMO, one of the best "bargain" hunting rifles available right now is the Weatherby Vanguard. But to each his own I guess.

 

[AStone]

^ I have no doubt it's a fine rifle.

But no 16" barrel. That's the most important part for me.

 

[AStone]

No offense to you guys (see post #79*), but if you think you're going to continue this pissing contest in my thread, think again. Please take it to pm, or at least another thread. This one is important to me, and I don't intend to let it be shut down by bickering.

* [It's changed from earlier; something's missing]

Don't get me started on a popular quack that claims every scientist is a fraud, every study is fake, very gun writer a liar and he has no actual qualifications, no verifiable experiments or anything but his word that reflects poor knowledge of ballistics.
Is this yet another thread you are gonna wade into and repeat the terms "quacks" and "ballistic scientists" over and over again without managing to make any kind of concrete statements?

______

Back on track ...

Here's my desktop image for the last 48 hours. It speaks about what I'd buy today if I had about $800 burning a hole in my pocket:
one of these, a Leupold Hog (that'll spend as much time on the .30-30 -- in fact, there could eventually be two), a set of scope rings -- and a bunch of ammo: .223 and 5.56.

Color me curious, and in a range state of mind.

 

[Gtscotty]

Others have said it but if you go the ar15 route, buy an upper already assembled from a reputable company (model 1 sales has a lot of LmT stuff and it is very high quality for low price) and buy a stripped lower and build it up. The last ar15 my bro-in-law put together cost him under $500 and it drives tacks. I have also been looking for a mid-cal bolt gun and the Ruger looks pretty good, so does the mossburg. Shipping an ar15 thru certain airports can get you in lots of trouble I hear though, so the bolt gun might just be less hassle. My .02

Where are you seeing that Model 1 Sales is offering LMT made parts? You peaked my interest, but I couldn't find anything on their website. I honestly thought M1S had had some quality issues.

 

[AStone]

I had the same problem last night, Scotty: went there but couldn't find stuff very easily.

Part of that for me is I don't speak AR-eze, and I really don't know what to look for.

 

[Gtscotty]

I would recommend looking at palmettostatearmory.com, they have a lot of good deals and use high quality FN manufactured barrels on many of their uppers. Also, they offer complete uppers and lowers which would be the easiest way to mix and match, pop two pins in and you've got a rifle. They also sell what they call rifle kits, which is basically everything you need to put together a rifle except a serialized stripped lower (the only thing you need to have transferred through an FFL. I've had a few PSA builds, and they've worked well, at the very least their website is organized in a straight forward way so you can see what it would cost to piece together a rifle.

 

[Gtscotty]

If I were in your situation, I would look for one of PSA's premium uppers, specifically with an FN chrome lined 16 in, midlength gas barrel. Then get a standard complete lower, they always have sales, so you should be able to find something in your desired price range. Make sure whatever upper you pick comes with a charging handle and Bolt Carrier Group (BCG). If an upper you like doesn't come with those two parts, you would need to add them to your order separately to complete the rifle.

 

[AStone]

That's helpful, Scotty. Thanks. I like that site. Well laid out, and look like good deals with reliable service.

My problem with the kits -- and again, it's my problem, not theirs -- is that I'm just not knowledgeable enough about the AR platform to know which kit to buy -- should I go that route. At least with bolt actions, I can read reviews to help narrow down the choice. Of course, I can (and did) read customer reviews about various kits -- helpful -- but it's still a bit of a shot in the dark for me. I suspect it'd be different if I'd owned AR's or at least used them in the past.

I'll confess that -- as I posted above -- I'm leaning toward bolt action to start off, for several reasons. But ask me again next week. I'll keep reading and learning.

 

[adcoch1]

Where are you seeing that Model 1 Sales is offering LMT made parts? You peaked my interest, but I couldn't find anything on their website. I honestly thought M1S had had some quality issues.

I haven't been there in a while but they used to have the description of parts in a specific upper or rifle and lots of the parts were LMT. Might have changed, but recently I have been looking at palmetto state armory and have been hearing good things. Bought a few parts the other day so we will see quality wise. I will say that model1sales has never sold me anything that wasn't exactly as described, or lacking in quality. Same with my brother and a few friends. All the parts from them have been great, and it would be a shame to hear that isn't the case any longer...

 

[AStone]

I'd like to revisit an age old question that's been debated since Trex roamed.

Can 5.56 NATO be fired in .223 Remington?

Now, let me be very clear: I'm asking this question ONLY for Ruger rifles, specifically the AR-556 and the Ruger American Ranch. Those are at the top if my list. (Although I'm open to opinions about AR's in general, like those from Palmetto.)

Yes, I understand the potential problem: rifles chambered in 5.56 NATO have that longer leade. 5.56 NATO generates higher pressure, like a +p, that rifles chambered in .223 may not deal with. Up to 20k PSI. Got it.

But Ruger is known for producing guns that deal with higher pressures. Their GP series of .357 mag comes to mind.

For the Ruger American Ranch, here's the descriptor from Ruger's web site:

[Item number] 6965 5.56 NATO / 223 Rem

I note that it doesn't just say ".223 Rem" or "5.56". It says "5.56 NATO".

Yet, I'm finding posts (see link above) that claim one should not fire 5.56 NATO rounds in a .223, and others that claim Ruger advises against it.

If so, why would they list 5.56 NATO, given the caution of their lawyers?

Any light here?

 

[AStone]

Just to demonstrate that I'm doing my homework/research,
here's a pretty good history lesson about .223 v 5.56 NATO.

No doubt, not definitive, but still, a pretty good place to start.

 

[AStone]

Another article on this issue.

 

[goon]

Yeah - I think the Vanguard standard length is a little too long, and I think the shortest is 20". I'd say the CZ527 is the nicest .223 bolt action I've handled and I'd love to have one in 7.62x39, but they're not really a budget rifle.

On uppers, there is "milspec" as a basic standard, but some uppers are actually better - because milspec is actually kind of like saying "the best I can get in bulk for this much $$$." Also, I prefer a midlength gas system, but that's a complete civilian innovation so there is actually no such thing as that in "milspec" as far as I know. Easiest way is to read a lot, then ask when you're thinking about buying.

Good luck. Keep asking on the AR's when the search function fails you.
Lots to know, and some guys here who know a lot.

 

[ozygreg]

223 are good stuff

ozygreg from auistralia ,
i hunt with a 223 howa varmint. heavy barrel .and 6.5x55 varmint heavy bolt action .. i hunt rabbits goats pigs and deer . with both of them . its all about bullet placement ./. head shots i have drop reds as well with the 223 . only if you are arfter 1 for eating . if you are on a mob . the 30/30 or semiauto .
but i only shoot for meat . both of my rifles ,group 1/4 inch at100,200+. as we have done lotes of load develepment .my mate is a perfectianist,
Howa 223 heavy barrel 1:12 twist ,,,,tikka 6.5x55 heavy barrel 1:8 twist
load lapua 223 brass ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,load lapua 6.5x55 brass
br2 small primers ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, br2 large primers
55gr nosler balistic tip ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, hornady 140 gr amax
56.5 gr adi 2208 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,44 gr adi 2209
6x24x50 sightron S111 scope ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,8x32x56 sightron S111
and it becomes a tackdriver ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it stops anthing in australia

 

[The Big D]

I'd like to revisit an age old question that's been debated since Trex roamed.

Can 5.56 NATO be fired in .223 Remington?

Now, let me be very clear: I'm asking this question ONLY for Ruger rifles, specifically the AR-556 and the Ruger American Ranch. Those are at the top if my list. (Although I'm open to opinions about AR's in general, like those from Palmetto.)

This one's easy - the Ruger website lists both as being 5.56/.223 which means that they have a 5.56 or some sort of hybrid chamber. Both are good to go.

Very few ARs are actually chambered in .223. Almost all have a chamber that supports 5.56. There are however many .223-only bolt rifles - for example the Ruger American Predator. But the Ranch model is fine.

 

[AStone]

^^ Oz, glad you're 'ere, mate.

Fine post. Look forward to more from down under.

Pigs? You got wild hogs in Australia? Bring some knowledge to Hog 101 please.

 

[AStone]

^^ Big D, it makes me happy to read this. That's what I intuited, but glad to read another similar opinion.

This one's easy - the Ruger website lists both as being 5.56/.223 which means that they have a 5.56 or some sort of hybrid chamber. Both are good to go.

Very few ARs are actually chambered in .223. Almost all have a chamber that supports 5.56.
There are however many .223-only bolt rifles - for example the Ruger American Predator. But the Ranch model is fine.

 

[AStone]

This seems like a decent post on the evolution of .223 / 5.56 ammo.

Not saying it's all correct, but at least thought provoking.

 

[goon]

The .223 / 5.56 began as the .222 Remington, if I recall correctly.