.223/5.56: bolts v AR -- ballistics and rifle choice decision

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Buy whatever you want, but I don't know how you came to the conclusion that an AR is hard to field strip for cleaning.... It's super easy and doesn't even require any tools.
 
Gtscotty said:
Buy whatever you want, but I don't know how you came to the conclusion that an AR is hard to field strip for cleaning.... It's super easy and doesn't even require any tools.
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:) The rifle was designed for a basic private infantryman in the field, frequently with an IQ 3 points higher than a plant to clean in the field with minimal equipment. How difficult can it be? On a scale of difficulty of one to ten with ten being most difficult it's about a minus three. The rifle was designed around simplicity of maintenance.

Ron
 
AStone said:
Alright, 3 hours later.

I sat down at the pub with an IPA and read reviews.

Then, I watched videos of how to field strip and clean the AR.

That alone convinced me to go back to the basic bolt.

An AR has WAY more parts than I want to deal with now.
(Assumption: AR556 is the same in terms of complexity.)

I'm OK with my SR9. More parts than a revolver, but no more than my .22 semi-auto.

But the AR556 has 3X that number.
All those little pins ... in the field? :what:

No thanks. I'll pass.
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Sorry, I believe you went a little off the rails in the part in bold. Believe me, pop the sideplate on a double-action revolver and you will immediately wish you had a watch maker on speed dial. A modern striker-fired pistol has fewer parts than a revolver, and due to the miracle of modern manufacturing, most replacement parts are truly drop in. Replacing anything in the lockwork of a wheelgun is going to require patience and fitting.

As for stripping and cleaning an AR? Please. I've done it on a piece of cardboard laid on the ground while sitting outside. My wife asks that I refrain from opening up the solvent bottles inside the house, so my AR only gets cleaned on nice days when I have nothing much else to do and feel like sitting in the sun. I only "need" to clean it every 1000 rounds or so, usually a squirt of CLP on the bolt carrier keeps the sludge soft enough to function. Everything you need to thoroughly clean an AR will fit in a 1.5 quart plastic container. White glove inspection clean is not a requirement, in fact the rifle will last longer if not cleaned so rigorously.

Now if you're on to a bolt action, why not explore getting a .243 if you want a low recoil, accurate, commonly available round? You'll have a better selection of deer bullets than the .223 has and kicks less than a .30-30 lever gun. The .308 would be my second option in a bolt gun, more kick, but more punch and it shines with "just bullets" on medium game.
 
AStone said:
But I like to keep my guns clean.
I clean them after most range trips.
Same as I clean my body. Showers are good.

To do that with an AR556 means removing more pins than I want to deal with/remember.

But here's the problem ... as I stated in my OP.

I don't have a "home". I'm constantly on the road.
I've lived in 25 different places in 5 years. Every place is different than the last.

YOU have a home, a work area, that you know well. I do not.
I have to deal with tables, benches, etc that I don't know well.
I have to develop a new mental model of every place that I live in.
I don't always have a full set of tools -- moving across continent has a way of making those disappear.

For me, that's the same as "field".

You think not?

OK, here are my conditions. Move 25 times in 5 years, and deal with what I have.
Try to clean your rifles under those conditions.

Then, come back here, and we'll talk.

Until then, I'm going with a bolt action. :)
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Out of curiosity, and if you don't mind sharing, what is the nature of your occupation that requires you to have such a nomadic lifestyle?
 
The rifle was designed for a basic private infantryman in the field, frequently with an IQ 3 points higher than a plant to clean in the field with minimal equipment. How difficult can it be? On a scale of difficulty of one to ten with ten being most difficult it's about a minus three. The rifle was designed around simplicity of maintenance.
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Then there are designs like the AK, which is usable to people for whom the iron hoe is high technology.

BSW
 
shlike said:
Out of curiosity, and if you don't mind sharing, what is the nature of your occupation that requires you to have such a nomadic lifestyle?
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While I can't answer for Astone, for many the "nomadic" lifestyle is not all that unusual. I spent about 10 years in the USMC and that was followed by another 10 years DoD (Department of Defense). My daughter was born in NC and my son was born in Naples Italy. I always did what I had to do to make a good buck and put beanies and weenies on the table. I have worked the Pacific Rim as well as Europe extensively. You do what you have to do. My later years were stable and my last 25 years were with Navy Nuclear till I retired a few years ago. During all those years I met plenty of people like myself, many working for US Corporations but working abroad is assorted technical fields. During those years thank God for mom and dad's home and storage for my guns. :)

People travel for a number of reasons but the bottom line is usually work related and a man has to eat. :)

Ron
 
But the AR556 has 3X that number.
All those little pins ... in the field?
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What little pins? There is only ONE pin that is necessary to remove to clean an AR. The firing pin retaining pin. It's not that small. 20 years in the Infantry with the M16 platform and I can't recall soldiers losing a firing pin retaining pin in the field.

You don't need to remove the pin that holds the extractor in to clean it every time. I used to carry an old OD green triangular bandage I talked a medic out of and I laid it on the ground to clean my rifle. All the pieces you need to remove fit on it nicely.

There is no need to break the weapon down into more then 7 pieces to clean it. Simply shotgun the weapon (no need to even separate the upper and lower receiver) remove the charging handle, bolt carrier, firing pin retaining pin, firing pin, cam pin and bolt. You can also remove the extractor and the pin holding it on, but TM9-1005-319-10 states that this is only necessary if it's dirty or not functioning. The extractor pin would be the smallest part you have to remove for routine maintenance.

You can also remove and clean the buffer and spring, but like the extractor, it's not necessary every time.

If you get into pulling the trigger group you will eventually ruin your lower receiver because if you repeatedly push the hardened steel pins in and out of the aluminum lower you will eventually make the holes in the receiver bigger and the pins will walk out.

As for cleaning it, I clean mine once a year. My 6920 gets between 3-5K rounds a year through it.

I'm not trying to tell you you've made the wrong decision, just pointing out that by the time you disassemble a bolt in most bolt guns you will have just about the same number of small parts as you would if you disassemble an AR for routine maintenance.
 
I wouldn't consider an AK any easier to field strip or clean than an AR.
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Really?

M16
8-ar_zpsfohytjqv.jpg
The part I'm worried about when field stripping is the firing pin, firing pin retaining pin and cam pin. You pretty much need to removes the bolt from the carrier because firing dries the bolt out, so those parts have to come off, even if you don't strip the extractor.

AK
akmapart1024w_zpsvggtiguy.jpg
Strips to fewer parts than an AR and all the parts are larger. I can see losing a FPRP in the dirt or mud, an AK bolt is a much bigger piece and it's the smallest part you normally remove off the weapon.

Tavor
IMG_0407_zpsju2mmsdb.jpg
IWI did a lot of work to make the basic field strip easier and simpler than an AK. The firing pin is retained by the cam pin, which is retained by the bolt guide so it can't fall out by accident. The recoiling parts don't need to be detail stripped that often as they stay clean inside, the recoil spring assembly is pinned into the bolt carrier, the butt plate is hinged to the receiver and held closed by a captive pin.

I know which rifle I'd rather issue to poorly/hastily trained conscript troops.

BSW
 
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I think you're exaggerating what's involved in cleaning an AR. Normal field take down involves moving 2 captive pins almost the size of your pinky finger and pulling out the bolt/carrier. The army procedure takes apart the bolt/carrier assembly but I've found that not's needed on anything like a regular basis as long as you use lube that gets in there.

Mind you, I'm not actually much of an AR15 fan and would probably never hunt with one, but I think you're way off base with the concerns about cleaning.

I do wonder why you're looking at a .223/5.56 to hunt hogs and deer when your other rifle is a .30-30. That seems like an ideal caliber for hogs and deer.

The 60gr Nosler partition bullet does begin to stretch the .223 into deer territory, but why use a caliber that has one barely-OK option when you already have a caliber suited to the task?
 
Good comparison, but you don;t really need to strip down the AR BCG that far to give it a good, basic cleaning
 
ruger has a piston gun and a DI gun. Maybe he was watching the clean for the piston gun? The impingement guns are far easier to clean than most bolt guns. The big change being how often do you clean a bolt gun to the degree you clean an auto? Dissembling the bolt on an American will be far more difficult than taking out the cotter pin, firing pin, cam pin and bolt. Impingement guns run much cleaner than most people internet people admit.
 
I also think that whatever video you saw that made you feel the AR had lots of pins and small parts that had to be removed to clean it was a really bad video and a bad idea.

Its rare that anything beyond taking the bolt/carrier out is required to do basic cleaning. Taking the bolt out of the carrier isnt a big deal if you want to, but can just be lubed and left alone. A wipedown, a minute with a toothbrush on the bolt, lube, patch through the barrel if you want, and put it back together.

Interesting reading about cleaning AR type rifles.

https://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14/

I like fine bolt guns, and would truly like a quality bolt 223, but if making comparisons, do it with good info, not misleading nonsense from youtube.
 
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Ok, logging on for the first time (noon) since my last post last evening.

Thanks for all the posts since then, especially those of you trying to slap me out of angst about the AR cleaning video I watched last evening. :eek:

slapped.jpg

THR members said:
"AStone, pull yourself together, boy!"
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I'll find the vid later, and post it here so you can see what I watched. Perhaps it was intended to be one of those really deep cleaning exercises that's only needed once every 10k rounds or something.

I've only read the posts since then once, quickly -- before brunch, but will read more carefully later. But just a few first responses for now to some points that were brought up.

Re cleaning a revolver, I've never taken off the side plate of one -- and never would -- to clean it. To me, that's smith work. My revolvers were -- keyword, were: I've sold them all now -- some of the easiest to clean of any guns I've ever owned.

Re cleaning a bolt action, I've never taken a bolt apart to clean one. I just remove the bolt, clean the outside, do the best I can with action, and swab the bore.

Same with my 336. Now with it, I have taken it all the way down to itsy bitsy pieces once when it was new to smooth it up. But then, I had a stable place to live -- I was there for 5 years, pre-2010, and had a work bench, some extra time, and took almost a week to do it. The last five years -- and alas, potentially the next few -- weren't like that. But generally, I find cleaning the 336 to be super easy with very few parts, far fewer than the AR vid I watched last night -- far. But again, maybe I'm confusing complete takedown with general cleaning like a few of you suggested above. I'll take another look.

Re why not .243 or other calibers, which are (admittedly) more suitable for deer/hog than .223? Simply because as I said in the OP, I've been bitten by a .223 bug. I really want to explore this caliber and see what it will and will not do. Add that I'm one of those people that expect the global economy and general civilization to tank sooner than later (why isn't appropriate for discussion on THR; just making a general statement), and I suspect .223/5.56 NATO will be more available than other calibers, including .30-30. So I'm going to stick with the caliber. We'll see what platform I wind up with.

The other thought that crossed my mind this morning is this. I feel sort of intuitively that if I really want to explore the caliber, I might be better off with a bolt to start with. I know myself well enough to know that with a semi, I tend to be less ... careful with shots. I know the next one is half second away, and with an AR, I'd have lots of rounds. I'm a relatively poor person (though I hope to change that finally this year, and have some reasonable hope that it has at least the potential to happen), and don't have as much to spend on ammo as most. So I want to make shots count, especially when getting to know a new caliber. I've never been much of a semi-auto guy for rifles -- outside of .22 (which I have now for the first time in decades). More bolts and levers. Hence, still leaning toward bolt.

But I'm listening. I'll try to reign in my anxiety about the platform and listen to reason. Thanks for sticking with me here. I'm far less experienced with guns that most here, and will do my best to check my pride at the door and learn something.

Finally, to Shlike's question about what I do professionally. That's super hard to even describe briefly. Even my friends who've known me for months can hardly grasp it. In short, I'm a former college teacher who got tired of working for the man and teaching the same old science and math that's been taught for decades when hot new stuff is taking the world of science by storm. It's been called a revolution and renaissance in the sciences, as big as quantum theory, but applicable on all scales, far easier to comprehend, and applicable to our everyday world, every thing from health and healing to ecology to corporate and institutional operations to addressing the question, what is life? (I'm a biologist primarily, so that's a big one.) It's generally referred to as system sciences or complexity sciences. Plus it's just fascinating stuff, and it's not yet being taught in colleges/universities at an intro level; only graduate. My closest friends, associates and students have supported me -- although sometimes at a poverty level -- and encourage me to stick with this for another few years to try to make it work -- because they know how important these concepts are, and how much they need to be more in the public mind, and in general education.

So 15 years ago, I quit my full-time college teaching job with perks to become a freelance educator, doing public trainings, and trying to do some teacher training. What's really held me back has been lack of marketing/advertising and good business skills. I'm a content guy, not a business guy, and it just hasn't worked. I worked in Oregon for ten years, and was making it ok, but had too large an overhead, and honestly just got tired (read sick) of the west coast culture (especially the new age crap), so moved to Maine -- even though love lead me there, and that didn't work out (now there's a story), Maine is one of the most beautiful places I've ever lived, and one of the most grounded cultures, so I stayed. But making it there doing what I do has been even harder than on the west coast, given the small size of towns and a very poor economy. I'm working now to do more online training with teleconferences and videos -- that'll open up a global market for me - which I'll focus on in Florida (where I have a free place to live and work indefinitely with good friends who are eager to get into guns (!). And Florida also has WAY more money than Maine. Hoping that will take the shackles off me.

I'd post a web site, but I doubt most would be interested; some might even find objection to the science I teach (it involves some controversial social issues, including evolution and climate issues). I don't want to be advertising here, and don't want to rile up any friends. So, I'll just leave it at that. ;)
 
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Jeff White said:
You don't need to remove the pin that holds the extractor in to clean it every time. I used to carry an old OD green triangular bandage I talked a medic out of and I laid it on the ground to clean my rifle. All the pieces you need to remove fit on it nicely.
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Your patrol cap also works to keep track of the two or three small pieces...

Jeff White said:
If you get into pulling the trigger group you will eventually ruin your lower receiver because if you repeatedly push the hardened steel pins in and out of the aluminum lower you will eventually make the holes in the receiver bigger and the pins will walk out.
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In the military, disassembly of the trigger group is not authorized. And even in the civilian world not suggested. Just hose the area down with brake cleaner, then hose it down with WD-40 to rinse it out, then a drop or two of oil on the pins to re-lube, and you're done

Have you compared an M16 to an M1 Garand as far as the number of pieces goes, not to mention the number of ways to mess up re-assembly...
 
In the military, disassembly of the trigger group is not authorized. And even in the civilian world not suggested. Just hose the area down with brake cleaner, then hose it down with WD-40 to rinse it out, then a drop or two of oil on the pins to re-lube, and you're done
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Ive never even done that (hose down with brake clean). If a toothbrush and rag didnt get out any crud, it stayed. Never had any functional issues from how clean the gun was, though I kept mine relatively clean. Just never had to do much to clean them well. Like Pat Rodgers said, 10-15 minutes is all it takes.

Again, let me repeat the caveat. If you are carrying a gun for real, you need to be looking at it every 5,000 rounds or so. But if your cleaning takes more than 10 to 15 minutes, you are wasting your time on nonsense.
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The only time you would need to remove the trigger group is if a primer popped out of a round and got under the trigger and you couldn't shake it loose.

I've seen it happen ONCE. That's in 40 years of professional experience (Army and LE) with the M16/AR15.
 
I have no skin in the game over bolt or semi, shoot what makes you happy. As many have said the complexity of disassembling an AR is probably over done. One of the major things with 5.56/.223 is that the AR is THE platform for that round currently. If you really want to see what that round is capable of doing the AR has some variant to allow you to check it out. Short barreled upper for CQB work? Check. 24" varmint/match upper? Check. Hell, bolt action upper? Check (they do make them).

Again if you'll be happier with a bolt gun, then by all means get one.

-Jenrick
 
To the OP you can get an AR 15 for a whole lot less than 2k,S&W and Windham Weaponry can get you a very nice AR for a $1000 or less.
S&W has their Sport AR 15 or at least I think that's the name of the rifle,it's a bare bones AR with a few things left off that don't affect function and accuracy. They go for around $600 give or take and from personal experience as my buddy has one is extremely reliable.
Both S&W and Windham Weaponry have lifetime warranties.
Also the direct impingement system of AR rifles parts are made by everyone but with the Ruger AR556 if the gas system breaks it's a proprietary system Ruger would be the sole source of parts and if they're out of stock you're screwed.
 
I watched less than 2 minutes of it. Ive never ever taken a buffer out to clean an AR. Looking at youtube search results, most related to basic cleaning were WAAAAAAAAY too long, just looking at their times. That one wasnt that long, but already started veering off track quickly as far as basic cleaning goes.


Unfortunately, most people seem to think they should make videos as long as humanly possible about most subjects. Drives me up the wall. If a well known shooter guy on youtube would make his videos about 4 minutes instead of 20-30, Id watch them. Droning endlessly on about minutia loses me quickly, and Im not all that impatient.

[/rant off]

Yes, Im grumpy. :D
 
Sounds like you'd prefer the bolt rifle. If you're shooting on a limited ammo budget, and/or prefer a more accurate gun, that makes a lot of sense. I think lightweight centerfire bolt rifles are one of the key, and under-owned, firearms. The Ruger American, by most accounts, is as good as any of the non-premium offerings.

One advantage of the AR, if you're concerned about a less than stable society, is that it is the single most popular rifle chambered in the single most popular caliber in the US. Combine that with maybe 50 vendors making interchangeable mix-n-match parts, and you have a very favorable parts situation. The same can't be said of a relatively new and modestly popular bolt rifle like the Ruger American with very little aftermarket support (or interest - I get the feeling typical Ruger American owners buy them for a hunt, put on bases, rings and a scope, and call it good). Not really trying to talk you into the AR - as I said, I'm luke warm on them - but rather just pointing out one advantage.
 
I goofed I thought that AStone was thinking the SR 556 which is a piston system,please ignore the $2K comment and assumption that you were looking at a piston system AR
 
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