.223 case neck tension woes

[nofishbob]

Hi Guys-

I have loaded and fired around 1,000 or so .223 round for my AR15 clone. Two or three seem to have had insufficient case neck tension, because the bullet was jammed back into the case by the feed ramp so that powder spilled out. The powder got into the locking lugs, on the breach face, and even into the chamber.

Just a few granules of powder are enough to keep the next round from fully chambering, and effectively takes the rifle out of commission until it can be cleaned.

After the first time it happened, I started twisting/pushing on each completed round to see if I had any more loose ones. I caught a few this way and rejected them. the next rounds that failed in the rifle were firm enough for my fingers but not for the feed ramp.

Using Hornady dies, mixed head stamp brass, Winchester 55gr soft point bullets, rifle is a CMMG with extended, polished feed ramps.

Any suggestions are sure appreciated!

bob

 

[GLOCK45GUY]

Are you putting any crimp on them? I would imagine a Decent crip would remedy this.

 

[nofishbob]

Yes, I am crimping into the cannulure.....perhaps a little more crimp would help.

 

[Galil5.56]

Which cases are giving you setback? Did you mic the bullets? I guess you could sand down the expander, or contact Hornady with your situation and see what they can do to get neck tension up.

 

[rcmodel]

Crimp is not the answer.

If you can narrow it down to a specific brand of cases, that right there might be the problem.

Otherwise, either your sizing die is out of spec & too large, or your expander button is too large, or your rifle is not feeding properly.

I would suspect the latter, except you said you found loose bullets in some of your loads.

The out-of-spec die would be a Hornady problem with a replacement in order.

The expander button can be chucked in a drill and turned down with a strip of Emory cloth until it is .002" - .003" smaller then the bullet dia..

If the case neck tension is correct, it should take 50 - 60 pounds of force to move the bullet with no crimp at all.

rcmodel

 

[nofishbob]

Thanks for your replies! I will do some checking as you suggested.

Bob

 

[fineredmist]

How are you crimping the rounds, with the seating die or with a seprate die? I can highly recommed the Lee Factory Crimp Die as it can be adjusted and it will do the trick. If all else fails then give this a try. They are not expensive and I feel they are worth the money and the time.

 

[rcmodel]

If all else fails, then it's a rifle or magazine problem.

An AR should work perfectly with neck tension alone holding the bullet in place.

They don't have to be crimped.

rcmodel

 

[JRadice45]

RC, how do you test for bullet movement under 40-50 pounds of pressure. I know you use a caliper or mic, but how do you know how much force is applied? Its wierd to think that the linkage in my press is capable of such force when I am putting so much less effort into the stroke... interesting.

I caught one case that had very poor neck tension the other day. For me it came down to experience and knowing how my machine feels when it operates. I had finished throwing powder charges and moved on to bullet seating. I go to seat this one cartridge and it goes in very smooth... too smooth in fact. I take it out of the shellholder and I can TWIST the bullet in the case.... I pulled it with my FINGERS and discarded the case into my scrap box.

 

[rcmodel]

I have used a bathroom scale in a carpenters wood vice and clamped it up until the bullet slips.

There is no figuring how many pounds of force a reloading press is exerting at full linkage cam over!

Well, I suppose there is, but I ain't smart enough to cypher it out.

Anyway, rest assured though, that its a lot more then 50 - 60 pounds!

You can & do develop the feel a bullet should have when it's seated with experience though, as you noted.

I simply will not load mixed brass in anything except pistol plinking / blasting ammo.

My rifle ammo is always loaded in brass of the same make & model, so getting a few thin cases that won't hold bullets is never a problem.

rcmodel

 

[rg1]

I've heard recently that some had found Win 55fmj bullets that were too small in diameter. Measure a big group of bullets to see if some or all are less than .224".

 

[matrem]

I've not,at least yet,ever ran into bullets being undersized.I have had to "work" expander balls to get enough tension to ensure no setback.

 

[30Cal]

I agree with the oversized expander ball theory. I've had that before.

 

[K3]

I've had to turn down several of my expanders on my Lee neck sizing dies due to insufficient neck tension. That'd be my guess even though you are using Hornady. At the end of the day, a die is pretty much a die IMO.

 

[cliffy]

A Lee Factory Crimp Die . . .

will never fail you with proper adjustment. See the crimp! Crimps bite the bullet firmly into place. IT CAN'T MOVE, if done correctly. Crimping is/or should be a separate operation regarding .223 Remington cartridges. Give Lee a chance to show you what it does best! cliffy

 

[kelbro]

Another example of why crimping .223 is not a bad idea.

Your problem, once you determine what it is, is probably being repeated on several reloading benches as I type this. Inexperienced folks, guys not paying close attention, etc... can lead to serious issues which can hurt the shooter or those nearby.

I keep seeing posts saying 'You don't need to crimp' The next time someone feels the urge to post those words, look back at this and numerous other 'setback' posts and think about the potential consequences of such a general statement.

 

[drgrenthum]

i dont crimp my 223 using lee gear and have never had an issue (1200 rds). I use mixed brass and when i do try to pull a bullet it takes more then 50 or 60 lbs to pull it out. Of course there are going to me numerous threads with peope talking about problems when not crimping, why would someone start a thread about how well everythign is going for them?

 

[agd1953]

I had the same problem when I started loading .223. first make sure you oal is ok because if the bullet enters the rifling and you eject the cardridge they will come apart. I used an RCBS die and contacted them and they had me measure the expanding ball. They sent me a replacment but I went the extra mile and got the lee factory crimp die. Since then not one problem.

 

[nofishbob]

I think I have figured this out.

Like so many things, it looks to be a combination of factors.

I took one of the failed cartridges out of the garbage and pulled the bullet.

I re sized it and re-seated the bullet. It was not loose enough to twist with my fingers, but failed the "push on the bench" test.

I then redid the same thing with a different bullet, same case. Could not push the bullet in. Undersized bullet? I repeated with another case with the original bullet with same results. It seems this bullet was slightly small.

I experimented with crimp at extremes from little crimp to so much crimp the case was starting to buckle with only a little change. The smaller bullet never seemed to be really tight in the case. More crimp made it better, but the small bullet was never as secure as the other bullets.

I then noticed that the re sizing die was adjusted too high, and the case neck was not being re sized as far down as it should be.

I adjusted the die, re sized a case, and seated the suspect bullet. No problem with the push test- the bullet was really secure in the case.

In summary, it looks like the die being high worked for most bullets, but some undersized ones caused problems. With the die set correctly, undersized bullets (at least the one I tested) are also gripped tightly.

Thanks for all of your replies and suggestions!

Bob

 

[ants]

Good lesson to all of us. When you have a problem, first check all the reloading basics.
Assumptions don't cut it.

 

[rcmodel]

SO, you have reloaded over 1,000 rounds for your AR clone and have only been partially neck-sizing because the die was screwed out too far?

It's a wonderment you aren't having more then loose bullet problems!

Screw the dang sizing die down until it bumps the shell holder hard at full press stroke.
Only then are you full-length sizing the cases.

rcmodel

 

[nofishbob]

Thanks, guys.

Yeah, the position of the die was marginal. When screwed down correctly, it works perfectly. The way I had it, it worked well enough to fool me into thinking it was OK. If it had been a little higher, it would have been obvious that there was a problem because most or all bullets would have been loose.

They say that you learn from your mistakes....I should be a genius by now!

Bob

 

[NCsmitty]

nofishbob, another lesson learned, this will stay with you all your reloading days. And no one was hurt, no guns damaged. If only all of life's lessons were this easy. Happy shooting!

NCsmitty