223 case neck tension

[KY DAN]

So I full length resized 2500 or so 223 cases with a LEE full length sizer die.

I removed the expander mandrel and replaced it with a pistol de-cap rod so the necks would not be expanded. I based this on a article I read on making match ammo for a m1a by ensuring all operations were concentric to their appropriate features.

I went to swage the primer pockets on the LEE swager die and found the support rod would not enter the case mouth. I am using the right rod, it goes in the regular sizes 223 brass.

I feel I have ALOT of neck tension now and don't know what to do.

I think the m die will open up the neck for loading no issues.

So Two question

1. Will this much neck tension affect accuracy negatively

2. How should I go about swage the primer pockets as this is all military brass?

 

[243winxb]

I removed the expander mandrel

Put it back in the die and fl size again.

 

[lordpaxman]

I think the m die will open up the neck for loading no issues.

It does. I run .223 through a progressive that FL sizes, deprimes, swages, then trims and I don’t bother to chamfer. That’s step 1. The next time through it’s the Lyman M die, prime, powder, bullet. Works fine for AR ammo. I run range brass so I don’t worry too much how varied the neck tension is. I do check every round for concentricity. Just kidding on that last part.

 

[AJC1]

So I full length resized 2500 or so 223 cases with a LEE full length sizer die.

I removed the expander mandrel and replaced it with a pistol de-cap rod so the necks would not be expanded. I based this on a article I read on making match ammo for a m1a by ensuring all operations were concentric to their appropriate features.

I went to swage the primer pockets on the LEE swager die and found the support rod would not enter the case mouth. I am using the right rod, it goes in the regular sizes 223 brass.

I feel I have ALOT of neck tension now and don't know what to do.

I think the m die will open up the neck for loading no issues.

So Two question

1. Will this much neck tension affect accuracy negatively

2. How should I go about swage the primer pockets as this is all military brass?

If you did zero expansion you bullet will be large enough to yield the brass in plastic deformation and you will not have near the tension you think. I can't honestly say what the limit is on 223 brass depending on the state of anneal. I would guess over .005 will cause plastic deformation and form to the new deminsion minus springback again depending on the state of anneal.

 

[zeke]

A dillion primer pocket swager will greatly simplify and speed up the process without using your press, and eliminate the need for a support through the case itself. Very handy for swaging large numbers of crimped rifle/pistol primer pockets. https://www.scheels.com/p/dillon-super-swage-600/60982420095.html i believe RCBS makes something similiar, but have no experience with it.. Am not expanding the necks on 223, but use a Redding comp seater to keep the bullet aligned while being seated. To simply test if this method is increasing neck tension, use a bullet puller to compare using dummy rounds. The amount of increased case neck tension can vary depending on the dies/brass being used. There is one brand of 223 brass with noticeably thicker brass in the case neck, but can't remember which it is. If memory holds, military brass ways less than most commercial 223 (opposite of 308), and the brass in the case neck was not thicker.

Sometimes it be handy to make up a dummy round or 2 using new procedure, and check it before devoting time to a large batch. If the dummy rounds check out, load up real rounds and check before loading the whole batch. When i want to really know, i try it out.

 

[KY DAN]

Well, I got carried away with the idea lol

I will try the m die and see what kind of performance I get with a few rounds. I hope it's enough because I dread reprocessing these after already prepping this far.

 

[kmw1954]

Are you trying to load Match grade ammunition for the 223 or just accurate general shooting?

If trying to load Match type ammo I would suggest dumping that crimped primers military brass. I say this because I started down this same road and learned the hard way.

I load with a everyday Lee Full Length sizing die with the expander still in it and and I hold .002"-.003".

 

[Kaldor]

So I full length resized 2500 or so 223 cases with a LEE full length sizer die.

I removed the expander mandrel and replaced it with a pistol de-cap rod so the necks would not be expanded. I based this on a article I read on making match ammo for a m1a by ensuring all operations were concentric to their appropriate features.

I went to swage the primer pockets on the LEE swager die and found the support rod would not enter the case mouth. I am using the right rod, it goes in the regular sizes 223 brass.

I feel I have ALOT of neck tension now and don't know what to do.

I think the m die will open up the neck for loading no issues.

So Two question

1. Will this much neck tension affect accuracy negatively

2. How should I go about swage the primer pockets as this is all military brass?

A M-die will give you 2 thou neck tension and will effectively act as a mandrel to set final neck tension. I've used one this way for 1000s of rounds on my progressive press for 223 and 308. I haven't used an expander ball in 5+ years. It's a great way to go IMHO.

As far as not being able to get the swaging rod into the case? You have 2 options as I see it. One, use a crimp cutter like the one from Hornady or RCBS and just cut them out. Two, just M-die the brass, and the Lee swaging rod should fit. That also finishes the brass for final loading.

 

[westernrover]

I agree the bullets will effectively be an expander so that the tension will not be that excessive, but the bullets, especially flat-base won't be gentle on case mouths neither will the case mouth be gentle on the bullet. Boat tails will probably act as a better expander, but I would consider using a mandrel with an appropriate neck lube. There are more choices for mandrels than ever before. There are the pull-through carbide mandrels like the one you removed from your die, there are the collet type mandrels in Lee Collet Dies, and there are at least a half-dozen mandrel die type expanders, some of which pull and others push (SAC, Sinclair, 21st Century, K&M, Cortina Precision, LE Wilson, and so forth).

The problem with removing the ball in the Lee die is that die is going to size the necks down excessively in order to accommodate the thinnest brass possible. If your brass is any thicker, it has to squash the necks down more than appropriate. With the ball in, it's not a major problem because the ball opens the necks back up to where they should be. In order to size necks without a ball, you need one of the bushing dies that allow you to choose a bushing size appropriate for the thickness of your particular brass. It's not unusual for people to collect several different bushings in 1-thou increments trying to find just the right one.

If you want a quick fix, get a mandrel die. Take note that many of the mandrel dies will not provide enough neck tension for an autoloader -- why is a bit of a rabbit hole -- just make sure the mandrel is more than 1 thou under the bullet diameter. A Lee Collet Die will do the job. So will a 21st Century mandrel die and mandrel that is .222" (they sell them in 0.0005" increments, but beware their "22" mandrel is 0.223" and would only be appropriate for single-feed rifles, opening necks for a neck-turning mandrel, or for brass the can be expected to "spring-back" to a smaller diameter.

 

[AJC1]

I agree the bullets will effectively be an expander so that the tension will not be that excessive, but the bullets, especially flat-base won't be gentle on case mouths neither will the case mouth be gentle on the bullet. Boat tails will probably act as a better expander, but I would consider using a mandrel with an appropriate neck lube. There are more choices for mandrels than ever before. There are the pull-through carbide mandrels like the one you removed from your die, there are the collet type mandrels in Lee Collet Dies, and there are at least a half-dozen mandrel die type expanders, some of which pull and others push (SAC, Sinclair, 21st Century, K&M, Cortina Precision, LE Wilson, and so forth).

The problem with removing the ball in the Lee die is that die is going to size the necks down excessively in order to accommodate the thinnest brass possible. If your brass is any thicker, it has to squash the necks down more than appropriate. With the ball in, it's not a major problem because the ball opens the necks back up to where they should be. In order to size necks without a ball, you need one of the bushing dies that allow you to choose a bushing size appropriate for the thickness of your particular brass. It's not unusual for people to collect several different bushings in 1-thou increments trying to find just the right one.

If you want a quick fix, get a mandrel die. Take note that many of the mandrel dies will not provide enough neck tension for an autoloader -- why is a bit of a rabbit hole -- just make sure the mandrel is more than 1 thou under the bullet diameter. A Lee Collet Die will do the job. So will a 21st Century mandrel die and mandrel that is .222" (they sell them in 0.0005" increments, but beware their "22" mandrel is 0.223" and would only be appropriate for single-feed rifles, opening necks for a neck-turning mandrel, or for brass the can be expected to "spring-back" to a smaller diameter.

I got the 21st century neck turner and use the expander and turning mandrels. The expander is larger than the turning by about .001 so I've started using the expander for bolts and turning for semis.

 

[KY DAN]

A M-die will give you 2 thou neck tension and will effectively act as a mandrel to set final neck tension. I've used one this way for 1000s of rounds on my progressive press for 223 and 308. I haven't used an expander ball in 5+ years. It's a great way to go IMHO.

As far as not being able to get the swaging rod into the case? You have 2 options as I see it. One, use a crimp cutter like the one from Hornady or RCBS and just cut them out. Two, just M-die the brass, and the Lee swaging rod should fit. That also finishes the brass for final loading.

This is exactly what I was looking for, thank you

 

[Blue68f100]

With outside neck turning you have more control on how much you remove, 0.0001" increments are are possible. On the inside your looking at 0.0005" min jump.

 

[N555]

-.002 undersize works pretty much on everything.

 

[jmorris]

I went to swage the primer pockets on the LEE swager die and found the support rod would not enter the case mouth.

On the 1050 the back up rod is also an expander, might measure the rod and a case mouth ID/OD, just for numbers sake.

A dillion primer pocket swager will greatly simplify and speed up the process without using your press, and eliminate the need for a support through the case itself.

Not any Dillion I have seen. Swaging without a back up rod is either less effective or can lead to rim damage. Its the black rod you slide the case over.

 

[zeke]

On the 1050 the back up rod is also an expander, might measure the rod and a case mouth ID/OD, just for numbers sake.




Not any Dillion I have seen. Swaging without a back up rod is either less effective or can lead to rim damage. Its the black rod you slide the case over.

View attachment 1192367

View attachment 1192368

You're right, i did not make the transition from how Dillion identifies the rod as a case locator rod, and what the rod actually does. Appreciate the correction