dogsoldier0513
Member
Yea or nay? Please explain your rationale. TIA
.223 frangible for home defense?
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Nay. 5.56 seems to have a good rep for not overpenetrating in building materials but doing well in tissue.
Leave frangible ammo for training.
Leave frangible ammo for training.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
How are you defining "frangible?" People seem to have very different ideas about what kind of ammunition that covers.
If you mean "frangible" in the same sense the military uses it, then no. Besides being more likely to cause a stoppage, it doesn't behave consistently and has poor terminal ballistics. The primary purpose is to be used in shoot houses to prolong target life and reduce ricochets.
If you mean varmint-type ammunition, then maybe, in limited circumstances where overpenetration is a very serious concern and you are willing to take the risk of less than optimum penetration.
If you just mean any 5.56 round that fragments inside a target, then yes. There are all kinds of 5.56 ammo and some of it is very useful in this role.
However, as with any other home defense round, the main way to prevent overpenetration is to put rounds on target and minimize the number of shots you need to fire to stop a threat. Realistically, training is going to be a lot more critical in achieving that goal than ammo selection.
If you mean "frangible" in the same sense the military uses it, then no. Besides being more likely to cause a stoppage, it doesn't behave consistently and has poor terminal ballistics. The primary purpose is to be used in shoot houses to prolong target life and reduce ricochets.
If you mean varmint-type ammunition, then maybe, in limited circumstances where overpenetration is a very serious concern and you are willing to take the risk of less than optimum penetration.
If you just mean any 5.56 round that fragments inside a target, then yes. There are all kinds of 5.56 ammo and some of it is very useful in this role.
However, as with any other home defense round, the main way to prevent overpenetration is to put rounds on target and minimize the number of shots you need to fire to stop a threat. Realistically, training is going to be a lot more critical in achieving that goal than ammo selection.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Nay. Georgia Arms loads a 55 grain Ballistic Tip in .223 that works for me.
Home Defense?
That is a frequently discussed issue on forums, not likely to happen for those who are prepared in reality.
First, a description of what is being defended is needed. Apartment in a urban complex, or suburban/rural home with few nearby buildings? Number of family members and layout? Why intruders select that property in particular, and - here it comes - what wasn't done to fix the attractive bait-like look to predators?
Did they discover you have valuables, including firearms? Property lines with shrubbery concealing their depredations inside? If it sounds like a CSI episode, property and personal security are the first guardians. Then the minutia of what bullets to use comes down to Glasers or hollowpoints from what semi automatic pistol that is physically carried 24/7. The worst case Home Defense is when you are suddenly grabbed from behind and a knife is at your throat while standing in the bathroom at dark thirty.
What bullet is in the AR propped up in the closet won't matter much. Yes, all that is somewhat ridiculous, that's where a lot of HD discussions go because the situation has so little functional reality until all the necessary facts are out and considered.
1) Secure the property, 2) Study bare hand self defense throughout the family, 3) have the appropriate weapon readily available for each situation, 4) Don't blow things out of proportion.
Those bumps in the night are usually family members, maybe this month all those everyday Cialis pills were finally justified.
It's noisy moving those two tubs around on the deck.
That is a frequently discussed issue on forums, not likely to happen for those who are prepared in reality.
First, a description of what is being defended is needed. Apartment in a urban complex, or suburban/rural home with few nearby buildings? Number of family members and layout? Why intruders select that property in particular, and - here it comes - what wasn't done to fix the attractive bait-like look to predators?
Did they discover you have valuables, including firearms? Property lines with shrubbery concealing their depredations inside? If it sounds like a CSI episode, property and personal security are the first guardians. Then the minutia of what bullets to use comes down to Glasers or hollowpoints from what semi automatic pistol that is physically carried 24/7. The worst case Home Defense is when you are suddenly grabbed from behind and a knife is at your throat while standing in the bathroom at dark thirty.
What bullet is in the AR propped up in the closet won't matter much. Yes, all that is somewhat ridiculous, that's where a lot of HD discussions go because the situation has so little functional reality until all the necessary facts are out and considered.
1) Secure the property, 2) Study bare hand self defense throughout the family, 3) have the appropriate weapon readily available for each situation, 4) Don't blow things out of proportion.
Those bumps in the night are usually family members, maybe this month all those everyday Cialis pills were finally justified.
It's noisy moving those two tubs around on the deck.
redbullitt
Member
+ 1 for ballistic tips or hollow points if you are worried about over penetration. Just make sure that you shoot them enough to confirm function in the mag etc.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Nay. I prefer medium-weight JHP (my current choice is Federal T223E, 55gr JHP).
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
You'll see that with pretty much any hollowpoint; it occurs because the cloth clogs the cavity and reduces the hydrodynamic forces that drive the expansion. .223 is actually less affected than a lot of pistol calibers would be, because .223 JHP's are comparatively fragile.
C-grunt
Member
My dept uses Federal .223 55 grn HP rounds in our rifles. They do the job very well.
dogsoldier0513
Member
Our brick house is 4200 sq. ft. and is situated on a 75 ft. bluff (sheer drop to water) overlooking a major US river. We have a 6 ft/ wrought iron and brick wall surrounding the property with a controlled access electronic gate at the street. All windows of the house, as well as doorways, sit well below street level and below either neighbor's house. We have motion-activated security lights in strategic locations and a monitored alarm system. We also have (2) 4-legged 'sentries' inside the house. Each major room of our house has a concealed handgun in place. The bedroom contains (2) cell phones, (2) flashlights, (2).45s, a Benelli M1 Super90 and a Bushmaster AR. The Benelli is loaded with 'Tactical/Low Recoil' 00/slugs and the AR is currently loaded with M193 Ball.
C-grunt
Member
If I am ever able to build my dream house, this would be a close example to what I have in mind!
DougW
Member
My first 10 rounds are frangible .223, followed by 20 rounds of Q3131A or XM193. The frangible are sintered bullets that turn to powder when they strike something hard, like sheetrock, doors, cars, streets, etc. Will not richochet, and will penetrate about 8" in bal gel before they break up. Manufactured in Seguine,Texas (can't remember the name of the manufacturer) for training purposes in "kill houses", and they have been tested for defensive use. Very accurate and function fine in my rifles. I live in a residential neighborhood, so richochet is a concern.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Are you sure you stated this correctly? M193 FMJ ball typically (about 70% of the time) travels about 4.7" before yawing and breaking up. 15% of the time it travels LESS than that. So it seems strange a round marketed as reduced penetration would outpenetrate M193 considerably before it starts to break up.
Or did you mean 8" of total penetration overall in bare gel? If so, that is about the same kind of performance you can expect out of a 55gr softpoint; but the 55gr softpoint will be more reliable, more available and cheaper.
Of course that 8" will also be about 4" short of the FBI's recommended minimum penetration standard; but as long as you realize the compromise involved.
It is fragile enough that upon hitting a 1/2" layer of gypsum dust backed by paper it will turn to powder; but it never prematurely turns to powder during the cycling of the weapon? Have you tested this claim yourself? I ask because it seems to me like one of those is likely untrue - either the round doesn't turn to powder upon hitting sheetrock (my bet) or you've been real lucky with your reliability testing so far.
dogsoldier0513
Member
Slightly off the original topic, but....
When I was in college I was a 'rabid' squirrel hunter. I was always trying new types of .22 ammo. I once came across some .22 Shorts solids made by Remington labeled 'Gallery Specials', IIRC. The bullet was 29grs. of compressed lead 'dust' intended to disintegrate when the gallery target/backstop was hit. They functioned fine from several different .22s and were accurate enough for squirrels. However, if a head shot was made, the squirrel's head seemed to 'explode'.
When I was in college I was a 'rabid' squirrel hunter. I was always trying new types of .22 ammo. I once came across some .22 Shorts solids made by Remington labeled 'Gallery Specials', IIRC. The bullet was 29grs. of compressed lead 'dust' intended to disintegrate when the gallery target/backstop was hit. They functioned fine from several different .22s and were accurate enough for squirrels. However, if a head shot was made, the squirrel's head seemed to 'explode'.
harmon rabb
Member
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holy hell. i can't imagine firing anything chambered in .223 indoors. you'd pop your ear drums with one shot
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
If you're talking about civilian-length barrels (16" and up) with flash suppressors or bare muzzles instead of brakes, the peak loudness is similar to a 3" to 4" barrel 9mm pistol and less loud than a .357 revolver or an 18" barreled 12-gauge.
Note that the .223 figure below is for an 18" barrel; a 16" barrel would be a few dB louder and comparable to the 9mm.
http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml
Table 1. SHOTGUN NOISE DATA (DECIBEL AVERAGES)
.410 Bore 28" barrel.....150dB
.410 Bore 26" barrel.....150.25dB
.410 Bore 18" barrel.....156.30dB
20 Gauge 28" barrel......152.50dB
20 Gauge 22" barrel......154.75dB
12 Gauge 28" barrel......151.50dB
12 Gauge 26" barrel......156.10dB
12 Gauge 18" barrel......161.50dB
Table 2. CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA
.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel.....155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel...........................155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel.........................156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel.....................157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel...........................156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel.........................158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 _" barrel.......................163.2dB
.375 — 18" barrel with muzzle brake...........170 dB
Table 3. CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA
.25 ACP...........155.0 dB
.32 LONG..........152.4 dB
.32 ACP...........153.5 dB
.380..............157.7 dB
9mm...............159.8 dB
.38 S&W...........153.5 dB
.38 Spl...........156.3 dB
.357 Magnum.......164.3 dB
.41 Magnum........163.2 dB
.44 Spl...........155.9 dB
.45 ACP...........157.0 dB
.45 COLT..........154.7 dB
The sound spectrum may be a bit different (the rifle is a little lower pitched, probably) but the potential for hearing damage is no greater than most other centerfire defensive-caliber firearms.
harmon rabb
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You know, I've seen those figures before. And I think they're a bunch of crap. There is no way in the world that a .223 is louder than a 9mm. I can fire 9mm at an indoor range with crappy ear protection on, or just earplugs even, and it doesn't hurt my ears at all. Guys can fire 9mm next to me, and it doesn't bother me at all.
.223? i generally need ear plugs AND muffs to not have my ears hurt after a while.
Perhaps there is something in the sound quality of the .223 that does it to me, but man does it sound louder to me. It's the sharp high pitched crack, perhaps.
.223? i generally need ear plugs AND muffs to not have my ears hurt after a while.
Perhaps there is something in the sound quality of the .223 that does it to me, but man does it sound louder to me. It's the sharp high pitched crack, perhaps.
Our brick house is 4200 sq. ft. and is situated on a 75 ft. bluff (sheer drop to water) overlooking a major US river. We have a 6 ft/ wrought iron and brick wall surrounding the property with a controlled access electronic gate at the street. All windows of the house, as well as doorways, sit well below street level and below either neighbor's house. We have motion-activated security lights in strategic locations and a monitored alarm system. We also have (2) 4-legged 'sentries' inside the house. Each major room of our house has a concealed handgun in place. The bedroom contains (2) cell phones, (2) flashlights, (2).45s, a Benelli M1 Super90 and a Bushmaster AR. The Benelli is loaded with 'Tactical/Low Recoil' 00/slugs and the AR is currently loaded with M193 Ball.
No complaints here. It practically can't get any better.
I have a frame house on .95 acre in a small town, zero security, and don't even lock the door at night.
Location, location, location. It's the neighborhood first. I left the metro when I could see having to do all that. It's become even more necessary there with the meth labs run in rentals, the neighbors pit bulls loose, etc. Can't jog down the street, can't ever leave anything unsecured, dog in the yard, no valuables visible from the street, etc. Hence, my perspective was to get the heck out.
Right now the biggest headache is the neighbor gunning his old truck warming up in the morning. No clue it's wasted gas.
Any weapon fired inside a building will trap the noise. In a standard 10 x 12 bedroom with sheetrock walls and ceiling, only the carpeting to absorb noise, it will still be loud. Carpet is known in music circles as being useless for absorption of sound, and never used. A discharge in a closed room can be overwhelming, which is why mil/LEO subjected to it train for it. It's why flashbangs actually work - the room contains it. They are much less effective in open terrain. If you've trained with artillery simulators it becomes apparent.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/ Check there for some real world testing of what penetrates what. Frangible ammo currently used for indoor ranges is available, the difficultly is that it may not penetrate soft targets as well. A shotgun might be the better answer. Frangible rounds are compressed dust, a shotgun pellet retains its mass and imparts energy better. The size, shape, construction, and power behind the projectile all influence different results.
It's not quite as intuitive as it first looks, but when the results are studied, then the mechanics are pretty evident.
No complaints here. It practically can't get any better.
I have a frame house on .95 acre in a small town, zero security, and don't even lock the door at night.
Location, location, location. It's the neighborhood first. I left the metro when I could see having to do all that. It's become even more necessary there with the meth labs run in rentals, the neighbors pit bulls loose, etc. Can't jog down the street, can't ever leave anything unsecured, dog in the yard, no valuables visible from the street, etc. Hence, my perspective was to get the heck out.
Right now the biggest headache is the neighbor gunning his old truck warming up in the morning. No clue it's wasted gas.
Any weapon fired inside a building will trap the noise. In a standard 10 x 12 bedroom with sheetrock walls and ceiling, only the carpeting to absorb noise, it will still be loud. Carpet is known in music circles as being useless for absorption of sound, and never used. A discharge in a closed room can be overwhelming, which is why mil/LEO subjected to it train for it. It's why flashbangs actually work - the room contains it. They are much less effective in open terrain. If you've trained with artillery simulators it becomes apparent.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/ Check there for some real world testing of what penetrates what. Frangible ammo currently used for indoor ranges is available, the difficultly is that it may not penetrate soft targets as well. A shotgun might be the better answer. Frangible rounds are compressed dust, a shotgun pellet retains its mass and imparts energy better. The size, shape, construction, and power behind the projectile all influence different results.
It's not quite as intuitive as it first looks, but when the results are studied, then the mechanics are pretty evident.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
The duration of the pressure pulse is probably somewhat longer for .223 (one would think that a 9mm would vent its residual barrel pressure much more quickly). But the peak dBA figures, and the potential for hearing damage, are comparable between the two, and are both less than for .357 out of a revolver (the barrel-cylinder gap adds a lot of noise due to very high pressure annular venting).
Now, if you move down into 14.5" barrels or shorter, brakes, etc. or compare the .223 to a longer barreled 9mm, then obviously the .223 in that case would be considerably louder. I shoot USPSA with a 16" .223 and under plugs and muffs it doesn't strike me as any louder than my 3.5" 9mm. On the other hand, I shot a match once where a guy in my group had a 14.5" with permanently attached brake, and that thing was ridiculously loud; the RSO/timer guy hated it.
Maverick223
Member
I'm with benEzra. No frangible for me, just ballistic tips or JHP in the same grain weight as I train with (that'd be 55gr. in my case) for me. It fragments and expands well which both destroys tissue well and limits penetration (whilst affording acceptable penetration to incapacitate the target).
I too have a hard time believing that .223Rem. is as loud as 9mmPara., that said my bbl is 21.5in. long (albeit in a bullpup platform). Additionally my .45ACP seems a great deal louder than a 9mmPara. That said, if someone walks through my door uninvited and threatens me and my family...my ears might bleed and the flash might blind, but the oppositions affliction is probably going to be a bit more severe...and permanent.
I too have a hard time believing that .223Rem. is as loud as 9mmPara., that said my bbl is 21.5in. long (albeit in a bullpup platform). Additionally my .45ACP seems a great deal louder than a 9mmPara. That said, if someone walks through my door uninvited and threatens me and my family...my ears might bleed and the flash might blind, but the oppositions affliction is probably going to be a bit more severe...and permanent.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
I know a guy who fired his .30-30 indoors (ND). His hearing is fine. The sofa died.
No, wasn't me, college room mate.
No, wasn't me, college room mate.
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