.223 in a 5.56

[WALKERs210]

In a different post a member asked about using the .223 in a rifle for the 5.56. I posted there in response while attempted to mention an issue I had with my AR15. I don't want to go and steal his post or overshadow his post so I thought I'd start this one so maybe something can be learned. Anyway my AR is a Bushmaster with 20" barrel, never had a single issue with it ever. Last Tues or Wed I took it out for an outing and was using Tula Ammo .223. First 3-4 rounds worked perfect, then it started ejecting but would not pickup next round, after about a dozen more rounds the bolt took an extreme amount of force to open, with the last round darn near had to beat it out. I had just changed the fixed stock with an adjustable one and wondered if the spring might be the culprit. Anyway I just visited my gunsmith and he has had same issue with the TULA ammo, basically the steel case did not expand enough to seal and after several rounds the dirty gunk was building up. Changed ammo over to Lake City and the AR dumped 60 rds without no problem, Now I have WOLF .223 I am going to try so I don't have to shoot all my LC ammo.

 

[thefamcnaj]

I've been scared to run tula ammo in my ar15(sig sauer m400 enhanced). My lgs where I bought said do not run it because it will give you nothing but problems as well as it being some dirty dirty stuff to run.
I'm not sure why tula rifle ammo has a bad reputation. I am some what of a rifle newbie and try to take ever percaution I'm given as I don't want to mess anything up.
I've shot a lot of tula through my hand guns and have not noticed any type of problems, how ever the pistol ammo shoots dirty too but doesn't cause any malfunctions.

 

[WALKERs210]

The TULA ammo I picked up was "CHEAP" that was the only reason I got it. I have used Wolf for a long time and currently have around 900-1000 rds of 5.56 Lake City. Age old saying is very true, you get what you pay for. Cheap ammo= problems and dirt which leads to malfunction. You would think at my age I would have known better

 

[briansmithwins]

Tula is weak, dirty, and not particularly accurate.

It's also roughly half as expensive as USA brass case loads. It isn't going to cause any notivable excess wear or harm your rifle.

If your rifle doesn't run the weaker brands of ammo it I'd suspect either:

1) It's new and needs to be broken in more.
2) You're running it too dry.
3) There is some other issue. Gas leakage, rough chamber, dirty rifle, bad planetary alignment...

BSW

 

[firesky101]

Some rifles like it, others do not. I have never had a stoppage in my AR, and run lots of tula/wolf/barnul. My M1 carbine is a different story it does not like it at all.

 

[Arp32]

The only time my bushmaster carbine ever jammed was Tula steel case ammo. .223/5.56 seems to be less of a factor than the quality of the ammo itself

 

[303tom]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=650423

 

[zxcvbob]

I have a new Ruger Mini-14, and I've shot a half a box of Tula 62 grain ammo thru it (The brand on the box is "Herters" but the headstamp says "Tulammo".) The ammo is weak enough that some of the rounds fail to clear the ejection port and only once did it pick up a new round and chamber it. Other than that, it seemed accurate enough. Because the gun is new, I've been pulling a boresnake down the bore after every shot or two, so dirty chamber isn't the problem.

It could be that the gun just needs lubrication, or needs to break in a bit. I'm going to strip it down and put a little grease on all the wear points, especially the bolt, before I shoot it again.

I saved all the casings except 1 piece that was damaged at the mouth. I'm gonna reload it at least once. I lubed them with castor oil and they resized just like brass, and I primed them and the primers fit good and tight.

 

[Jeff F]

If a rifle will run Wolf I would think it would run Tula as they are made in the same ammo plant.

 

[helotaxi]

Depending on the particular series of Tula or Wolf, that may or may not be true.

 

[The War Wagon]

Tula! Joy...

I have preached this in many times & many places, but not here... yet... The BEST rule of thumb with ammo is, "Combloc ammo, for Combloc GUNS."

AK's (and variants) have looser tolerances, better suited to the crappy dimensions of steel-cased ammo. The extra dirt & crud packed into Combloc ammo doesn't faze an AK in the least.

Forking out a grand+ for an AR (even a top-flite AR, like a Colt, BCM, Noveske, Knights, et.al., that HAS an in-spec chamber!!!) that hypothetically CAN eat Combloc ammo, is like ordering a Ferrari F12 Berlinetta, with the I-4 diesel... for the, "fuel economy"...

If I can afford the RIFLE and accoutrements, I can surely afford the difference between Tula, and PMC Bronze (or Q3131!). Even milsurp M193 or 855 is better for your rifle, than a hunka crap that some babushka slave laborer packed half full with second rate powder and Yak dung.

Bottom line is - shoot CRAPPY ammo - expect CRAPPY results.

Here endeth the lesson...

 

[helotaxi]

And I can reload the PMC brass when I'm done...

 

[W.E.G.]

Steel-case .223 ammo is sub-standard, and will tie up a lot of AR-15's

There are those who react every time somebody says anything against steel-case .223 ammo.
First they will tell you to "break in" your rifle some more.
Then, if the steel-case .223 still fails they will insist that your rifle is "defective."
Lastly they will begin preaching about how they "wouldn't own a rifle that won't shoot steel-case."

I've had bad luck with steel case in both of my AR-15's.
After about one magazine, it starts short-cycling until a case seizes in the chamber, and the extractor rips the rim off.
On top of that, its underpowered.

Don't use it.

One is a full-length Armalite A2 with standard rifle buffer (chamber appears to be chrome - cannot say for sure about the bore).

Other is a Chrome-lined J&T-sourced 10.5 SBR with H2 buffer (rips rims with, and without, the Gemtech HALO suppressor).

After about one magazine, each rifle starts short-cycling until a case seizes in the chamber, and the extractor rips the rim off.

Neither of my guns are problematic with quality BRASS-CASED ammunition.

_______________________

Seriously, you can try some of that stuff in your rifle if you want.

I recommend that you load three mags each with 20 rounds.

Fire the first mag quickly without pausing.

If the gun has not choked by the end of the first mag, quickly insert the second mag.

Quickly fire 10 rounds from the second mag.

Cease fire.

Wait one minute try to fire the next shot (shot #11 second mag).

If the gun has not choked yet, fire four more shots.

Cease fire.

Wait one minute, and fire the remaining rounds in the mag.

Quickly insert the final mag, and fire all 20 rounds in rapid succession.

If the gun has not choked by the end of the third mag, you may conclude that your rifle *probably* tolerates steel-case ammo.

Otherwise, remember to bring a stiff cleaning rod to the range to bang the stuck cases from the chamber, and remember the stuck cases will be HOT.

The cleaning rod will also become extremely hot after two insertions in a hot bore.


Somebody will be along shortly to remind us that steel-case .223 works fine in AR's so long as you ram a steel-wire brush in the chamber to clean out whatever residue it is that steel-case ammo leaves behind, that brass-case ammo does not leave behind.

Then somebody will remind us that steel-case .223 ammo is fine in AR's unless you make the "mistake" of shooting brass-case ammo in the gun after you shoot the steel-case ammo - as you will discover that if you thought the stuck steel-case ammo was hell, the stuck brass-case ammo is worse by orders of magnitude.



This is what steel-case ammo (lacquer AND poly) do in the two AR’s from my collection.

_________________________________

 

[WALKERs210]

I agree with WARWAGON, if I can afford to purchase a $1000.00 AR I can afford to buy better grade ammo to go with it. Since the day I bought it the only thing I have run in it was 5.56, and was wanting to see if it would handle the .223. Only issue was that locally I could only find the cheap TULA at a Wally World and at the price it was worth the gamble. In my AK's and SK's I will load up just about anything and get basicly same results with all the ammo. Would I go out of my way to buy this TULA again, for the AR No I would not, I am going to try a box of WOLF .223 just for a comparison. To each and all that have offered comments I thank you. This is how knowledge is passed on if the person receiveing it will not get their feathers ruffled and take it as it is meant. Again thanks to all

 

[B!ngo]

So, I'm pretty active on one of the more popular Porsche forums and every once in a while someone will write in asking about the use of regular gas in their new sports car. Truth is, it generally will work, though the engine will detune itself to accomodate it. But geez, you just spent who-knows-how-much on your used or new P-car so why would you cheap it on the gas?
Same for this ammo. If you sprung to purchase a nice AR, don't put 'regular' in the tank to save a few bucks. The expense of brass ammo just comes with the price of admission.

 

[helotaxi]

I certainly don't judge a rifle on its performance with poor ammo. No rifle can make crappy ammo shoot well. Tula in particular is known to be weak and inconsistent. Both are an ammo related stoppage waiting to happen. I can reload once fired LC brass that people have been nice enough to leave for me for less than you can buy Tula and have reliable, consistent ammo that functions the rifle every time and hits where I aim. I also don't have to worry about having to scrub the action down and clean out the gas tube after shooting it. Just wipe it down after every couple trips to the range.

BTW, even buying the brass new, the break-even point is 2.x reloads.

 

[Gtimothy]

Slightly off topic but I have a Norinco SKS that hates any steel cased ammo. I think the steel case just doesn't expand enough to properly seal the chamber and some of the gasses blow back and foul the chamber. I can shoot a couple of rounds then I get failure to feed issues. Now I have a bunch of Norinco 7.62X39 collecting dust! For that reason, I won't buy Wolf or Tula for my AR. Besides, I reload so steel cases don't work for me anyway!

 

[benzy2]

I've had a few ARs that shot steel cased ammo without a hitch. I think a big part has to do with the set of components you are using in the rifle. Some options take full power 5.56 ammo to cycle and anything less won't do it. Other combos are more forgiving of lower powered ammo. Add to that a gas block leak and quickly you can see how even top tier rifles fail with underpowered ammo. It also seems that many of the "duty" grade assemblers assume you will be using full power 5.56 ammo and build rifles accordingly.

If you want to shoot a lot, steel cased ammo can save far more than the cost of the rifle in a single barrel's life. In that case I would look at what parts are more forgiving to a lighter load (barrel and gas system length, gas port diameter, as well as buffer weight) and build accordingly. I reload everything so the steel case issue means little to me, but for a high volume shooter that doesn't reload, assembling to the ammo power level is something to consider to save some money or shoot more for the same money.

 

[gunpunx]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but your post said you just changed stocks. Was the spring and buffer changed to match the new length stock?

 

[WALKERs210]

Gunpunx yes it was changed, in fact there was a discussion about possible issue with changing it. With the 5.56 it handled those with out any issue at all. I have more or less come to the conclusion that the .223 steel cased ammo was the main culprit and have since done away with the shells. I have no problem just using the 5.56 brass ammo but just wanted to give the .223 ammo a test.

 

[BUCKrub91]

My bravo company ar that I built runs tula just fine... and gets 2" groups at 100 yards with a 1:7 twist cold hammer forged barrel...

I just make sure to clean my rifle after every range trip because that stuff is DIRTY

 

[gunpunx]

10-4. I have never heard good things about steel case ammo in an AR platform. Sounds like your problem is resolved.

 

[Rshooter]

I have heard about many AR's working with steel cased ammo. On the other hand I have some serious money invested in my AR's so I shoot what they were designed for, brass cased ammo. I fail to understand the logic of investing in a $1000 gun and then trying to save money by using cheap ammunition.

 

[benzy2]

I have heard about many AR's working with steel cased ammo. On the other hand I have some serious money invested in my AR's so I shoot what they were designed for, brass cased ammo. I fail to understand the logic of investing in a $1000 gun and then trying to save money by using cheap ammunition.

Price out 10k or 20k rounds of brass and steel cased ammo and it becomes quite clear. Getting 10k of steel cased ammo for $2000 vs $3000 for brass cased ammo quickly covers the cost in the rifle well before the first barrel is unusable. If you shoot a lot, saving $0.10 a shot adds up very quickly, certainly enough to cover the cost of the firearm. A lot of shooting styles/comp/training is more about speed than absolute precision. Shooting 5MOA ammo out to 200 yards is still within a silhouette. It's also why I reload as you can get better accuracy than most surplus ammo will do while still coming in under $0.20 per shot.

 

[helotaxi]

Why shoot crap steel when I can shoot good brass reloads even cheaper. I enjoy reloading as well so the time is better than free.