.223 pistols...practical or not?

[silicosys4]

I was doing some research for a reply to another thread, and I came across some information that I thought was interesting enough to share, and confirmed a nagging suspicion I had about .223 pistols. Is an ar-15 pistol practical in any way, other than for an expensive, tacticool range toy?

First we have an article about .223 velocity, and the dependance on the velocity of 55 grain and 62 grain loads specifically, on velocity. There are other loads that are engineered to do different things at different velocities, Hornady TAP loads for instance, and light varmint loads, but I feel these two loads are the most commonly used. This is an article by Fackler, one of the acknowledged experts in the field

"US M193 5.56x45mm - This bullet is fired from the US armed forces' first-generation smaller-calibre rifle, the M16A1. The large permanent cavity it produces, shown in the wound profile (Fig. 4), was observed by surgeons who served in Vietnam, but the tissue disruption mechanism responsible was not clear until the importance of bullet fragmentation as a cause of tissue disruption was worked out and described. As shown on the wound profile, this full-metal-jacketed bullet travels point-forward in tissue for about 12cm after which it yaws to 90°, flattens, and breaks at the cannelure (groove around bullet midsection into which the cartridge neck is crimped). The bullet point flattens but remains in one piece, retaining about 60 per cent of the original bullet weight. The rear portion breaks into many fragments that penetrate up to 7cm radially from the bullet path. The temporary cavity stretch, its effect increased by perforation and weakening of the tissue by fragments, then causes a much enlarged permanent cavity by detaching tissue pieces. The degree of bullet fragmentation decreases with increased shooting distance (as striking velocity decreases), as shown in Fig. 5. At a shooting distance over about 100m the bullet breaks at the cannelure, forming two large fragments and, at over 200m, it no longer breaks, although it continues to flatten somewhat, until 400m. This consistent change in deformation/fragmentation pattern has an important forensic application. It can be used to estimate shooting distance if the bullet is recovered in the body and has penetrated only soft tissue. " (Martin L. Fackler, M.D.)

http://uthr.org/SpecialReports/Military_rifle_bullet_wound_patterns.htm

http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_velocity.html

Basically you need at least 2700 fps for "explosive" fragmentation, and 2500+ fps to have any fragmentation at all...whats a .223 without fragmentation? An expensive .22
This information makes owning a 16" carbine a 150 yard game at best as far as terminal performance, and a 20" rifle a 200 yard game at best, after that....might as well go get a .22 mag with solid bullets...

Now if we combine that information with the following chronographed .223 loads from a 7" barrel, we get the following:

"Average velocity with Sellier & Belliot SS109 62 gr 2300 fps. Wolf 55 gr 2225 fps. PMC 55 gr 2275 fps. PMC green 40 gr 2325 fps."
(http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=226640)

and

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=59896.0

^^ thread about a guy who chrony'd his 7" ar-15 pistol...

The average muzzle velocity of the 7" barrel is about 2300 fps, well below the velocity needed to fragment....which means that:

you are essentially paying $600+ for a .22 mag that doesn't mushroom or fragment as far as terminal performance, and paying something like $.30 - $.40 per shot.....

Do these have any real practical uses? Does anyone here find they are suited for any particular purpose, more-so than any other weapon?

Or are these just range toys, cleverly marketed?

Edit: Don't know how this got onto the rifle forum, Mods, if you want to move it to the pistol forum, by all means

 

[68wj]

A 6.8 SPC or 300 BO will use the shorter barrel more efficiently, and bring more mass and diameter. Civie shooters are not limited to FMJ ammo that relies on fragmentation either. They will, however, have massive flash and blast. Regardless, I personally don't care for AR pistols though.

 

[Zoogster]

Pistols with typical length pistol barrels chambered in rifle calibers are often far less powerful than people imagine with factory ammunition.

Manufacturers of ammo know that certain calibers are going to be used in a certain type of rifle that is typically X barrel length.
For some rifle calibers that is 20"+, but in the USA it is going to be assumed over 16" minimum because that is generally the legal minimum. (Many platforms and cartridges were originally designed together similarly, with the case capacity and bullet weight designed to work with a certain barrel length for efficiency, although they may then go on to new roles.)

That means the round as manufacturered is intended to use that barrel length to generate its power within pressure limits using its case capacity to make the ideal pressure curve.

This means the powder used is going to be one that creates gradually building pressure that tapers off somewhere around that typical barrel length.
The longer a pressure near the intended operating pressure is maintained, the more acceleration is applied to the bullet. It is not the maximum reached, but the average maintained that determines how much is applied overall.
Rifle rounds build up, maintain longer, then taper off slower because they have enough barrel to give them that luxury.
Pistol rounds on the other hand are designed to spike up fast to near maximum in the limited barrel length they will have.


Rounds are limited by their maximum SAAMi operating pressures, so they must create a curve that is well under that. That curve is designed around a certain barrel length and case capacity.
So while rifle rounds are generally presumed to be more powerful, they derive that power from their barrel length allowing greater case capacity to be put to more use.


What this means is the rounds are not even optimized for short barrels. You could create rounds in .223 designed to reach saami limits in a 7 inch barrel. These could probably give much better performance, and would eliminate blast from excess powder burned outside the barrel. Maximizing what can be done for a given barrel length, even though it still won't reach rifle performance. Assuming they are not reaching their pressure limits before the bullet is exiting the muzzle in a 7 inch barrel, the perfomance could be increased a good deal. If they are reaching Saami limits already, they could just be made more efficient with last blast and a better pressure curve..
If such pistols are really made to handle SAAMI specs they can have the rounds adjusted to use faster burning powder that maximizes the short barrel length. (I say that because you could make a pistol shooting certain rifle rounds weaker because the rounds wont even reach their SAAMI pressures before the bullet exits the muzzle, and so if they are just tested using factory ammo it could be misleading. On the other if they are recievers that could just as easily have been rifle recievers, like most AR pistols, they certainly were meant to contain full pressure.)


Pistol rounds can actually be more powerful than many rifle rounds once you get under certain barrel lengths. This is because so much of the powder, and often slower burning powder, is blown out the muzzle as flash and bang. Burning in the air where it imparts no power the the projectile.
For example a pistol round made to get to over 30,000 PSI and is doing so every time is going to be more powerful than a rifle round that only reached 25,000 PSI and was still climbing before the bullet exited the muzzle, even if the rifle round tops out much higher.
Likewise a pistol round like the .454 Casull that tops out at high maximum Saami pressure will outperform most rifle rounds that operate at similarly high pressures because it is actually intended to reach those pressures in a short pistol barrel in factory loads.
Rifle performance catches up and then blows it away once you increase the barrel length, but under that barrel length the pistol caliber is operating at its intended pressure while the rifle round is not.
However because people 'know' rifles are more powerful, they presume a pistol in a rifle caliber would likewise continue to be more powerful.

The increased flash and bang from powder being burned outside the barrel increases the perception of power, when in reality it can be less powerful than some much more subtle rounds that finish burning all their powder in the same barrel length.

 

[silicosys4]

Awesome post, zoogster, many thanks
I had not considered the possibility of reloading .223 to optomize the shorter barrel of a pistol. I have seen Kb photo's of ar-15's that had blown up on rounds that had been reloaded with pistol powder...that alone would keep me from wanting to try.

 

[Sam1911]

Or are these just range toys, cleverly marketed?

The benefits of a handgun are concealability and/or portability. The benefits of a rifle are increased stability and practical accuracy, higher power, and longer range.

These various .223 pistols are largely a range toy. They do have a great benefit in that they offer the easy basis of a registered SBR build, but you have to stretch pretty darned far to identify what they really do better -- or even as well -- as either a traditional pistol or a carbine.

Having shot them in practical pistol competitions and/or scenarios, they sure do fall far short when pushed into that role. FAR, far, far, far short.

Further, while they are slightly lighter and more concealable than a carbine, their lack of a stock (and a few other details) make them a poor compromise there as well.

They're a fun range toy, but that's about it.

 

[Skribs]

As to velocity, I would think anything designed to work in a SBR (which, since military and private forces tend to like the SBR version, I'm sure there's ammo out there that will work). I would bet this ammo is still deadlier than 5.7x28mm ammo.

As to the platform itself, I only see the point if you get an AR pistol without the buffer tube, and for any practical application it would have to have a 1-point sling on it. I'm not sure what the real practical use of it would be, though, because for carry (both outside and inside the home) a regular handgun will be far more convenient, and for something to have in the home, a legal rifle would offer a much better platform.

Just for kicks though, when I can afford to spend it on a toy, I want to CCW one of these.

 

[2wheels]

They're toys, and potential SBRs, but not much else IMHO.

But there ain't nothing wrong with that, nobody said every gun had to have a home defense/CCW role.

 

[Skribs]

nobody said every gun had to have a home defense/CCW role.

I do. At least for those I purchase.

 

[2wheels]

I do. At least for those I purchase.

Everybodies wants/needs are different. You may not spend your money on guns that you don't "need", but I'll bet your spare cash gets spent on other toys.

If one of my ex's had her way, I'd only own 2 handguns instead of the 6 that I currently own because "One for home and one to carry, why do you need more?". (She had tried to get me to sell ALL my guns, this was her backup plan).

I told her I'd sell the guns when she sold her shoes, she didn't like that.

 

[ns66]

i read the mini556 5.7mm fired from Five-seven is quite effective round, even if it doesn't rely on fragmentation, it tumbles

quote from wikipedia

In testing conducted by Passaic County, New Jersey Sheriff's Department, the 5.7×28mm SS190 penetrated to a depth of 27 cm (11 in) in bare ballistic gelatin, and a depth of 23 cm (9 in) in gelatin protected with a Kevlar vest.[8] In testing, the SS190 and similar 5.7×28mm projectiles consistently turn base over point ("tumble") as they pass through ballistic gelatin and other media, using the 21.6-mm (.85 in) projectile length[12] to create a larger wound cavity.[8][13][17] However, some are skeptical of the bullet's terminal performance, and it is a subject of debate among civilian shooters in the United States.[17]

 

[M2 Carbine]

There's few other "pistols" that will do this.

The chipped paint is from "conventional" handguns.

IMO a .223 or 7.62x39 pistol has plenty of power to stop anyone. (the rusted hole is from a AK pistol.

.223 JHP from a Kel Tec PLR compared to a 45ACP Gold Dot. Of course the .223 is going about three times the speed of the 45.


Personally I wouldn't care what I was armed with, I would hate to go up against a competent person armed with a .223 pistol.







The only thing that stops me from using Kel Tec .223 PLR's as HD and vehicle guns is the ear shattering muzzle blast.

 

[Sam1911]

Personally I wouldn't care what I was armed with, I would hate to go up against a competent person armed with a .223 pistol.

For myself, I'd rather go "up against" someone armed with a .223 "pistol" than an equally competent attacker with a conventional pistol. I consider myself a reasonably competent person and, through testing, I know the odds of making quick, rapid, accurate hits with one vs. the other.

I can fight effectively with such a weapon. I can fight far more effectively with a less awkward weapon.

I don't particularly care whether my defensive firearms can penetrate mild steel plate. I can't really imagine a realistic scenario when that's what's keeping me from prevailing.

 

[ns66]

For myself, I'd rather go "up against" someone armed with a .223 "pistol" than an equally competent attacker with a conventional pistol. I consider myself a reasonably competent person and, through testing, I know the odds of making quick, rapid, accurate hits with one vs. the other.

I can fight effectively with such a weapon. I can fight far more effectively with a less awkward weapon.

I don't particularly care whether my defensive firearms can penetrate mild steel plate. I can't really imagine a realistic scenario when that's what's keeping me from prevailing.

what if people take cover

 

[Sam1911]

what if people take cover

Uh...seriously?

If I can't SEE them, I shouldn't be shooting at them.

And...my house isn't full of mild steel plate.

Remember how we all say 5.56 is such a GOOD choice because it fragments in walls and WON'T penetrate?

Guess you just can't win.

 

[ns66]

Uh...seriously?

If I can't SEE them, I shouldn't be shooting at them.

And...my house isn't full of mild steel plate.

Remember how we all say 5.56 is such a GOOD choice because it fragments in walls and WON'T penetrate?

Guess you just can't win.

if the bad guy hides behind whatever, and i have 30rd 556 i don't mind shooting him just knowing he is behind that door/fridge whatever ;P

 

[ns66]

i don't have any 223 pistol, only have ar-15 rifle, but i actually i think this is a very interesting topic, home defense ar-15 is just a bit too long, i have no doubt about 223 pistol's ability, only concern for me is if it's easy to handle? right hand on the grip, left hand on the magazine? how to handle the recoil?

 

[Mobuck]

I have experience with two AR type pistols with 10.5-11.5" barrels. Both were quite accurate when mounted with a scope. Neither was even remotely akin to handling a true handgun. With varmint type bullets, I have no doubt of the wounding capacity of the 10-12" barrelled AR's.
I keep a laser/light equipped AR pistol loaded with Federal 50 grain JHP close to my bed in case I need an overwhelming application of firepower. The muzzleflash and blast of this combination is totally awe inspiring and intimidating to the max.

 

[oneounceload]

nobody said every gun had to have a home defense/CCW role.
I do. At least for those I purchase

That's too bad Skribs - shooting guns for fun and competition is a great past time. Not everyone lives in dire peril that every minute they need to be armed for SD. Some of us actually have a lot of fun - you might try it some time - you'll see...

 

[TimboKhan]

Clearly, these do not have a practical aspect. As Sam has been saying, they are a range toy. They are dangerous weapons to be sure, but they exist for pleasure.

Nothing wrong with that. In fact, I have always sort of wanted a PLR16. They look fun and interesting. I do a lot of combat style shooting as a means to train, but the day that enjoyment takes second place when I shoot is the day that I sell all my guns but one or two and join a model plane forum.

Shooting should be fun. Everyone needs at least one gun dedicated purely to pleasure.

 

[mf-dif]

A sling helps immensely when firing these. You can create a nice tight triangle with it. Or just fire 30rds from the hip, I'm sure that would get the job done in a HD situation. Ambient dangerous though for your neighbors or others in the house.

 

[Walkalong]

the ear shattering muzzle blast

This would rule it out for me, even if it could be used as effectively as other short range weapons. I do not want to try to continue fighting, deaf, with my ears bleeding. Not to mention the long term hearing problems.

 

[Azb]

I have a 10" barrel 5.56 ak. Through less than rigorous or scientific testing shooting at a mud hill with various calibers, it seems a 10" barrel works reasonably well (meaning it makes huge furrows in the dirt) with 55gr at 60 yds or less. Longer distances mean small, neatly punched holes on a regular basis. 60 yds is acceptable for a handgun.

Using heavier ammo, (66 & 75gr) damage and accuracy at 100 yds is acceptable, 75gr at 120. (the longest distance I tested)

I also have a 7" ak in 7.62 and it does not have these issues. It needs a stock, however, to hit anything with follow up shots. The kick from the 5.56 is much better shooting as a pistol. As an SBR, the 7.62 is clearly superior. The 5.56 is better as a pistol.

 

[Casefull]

I have a one in 5.56 and 7.62 that are both very accurate. They do not loose as much velocity as you might think.

 

[crawfobj]

I have a 5.56 pistol. 100 yard accuracy from a sling is excellent. Muzzle Blast is fierce.

My not so scientific penetration testing was interesting. Same ammo in the pistol and a 16" carbine on 1/4" mild steel plate at 100 yards. The carbine blew right through as you would expect. From the pistol' the bullet bulged the back of the plate and made a nice crater but didn't penetrate. I believe this was with fmj.

The pistol isn't the most practical but it is lots of fun. Would make for compact firepower in a vehicle i suppose. Hope that need never arises. Until then, mine is just for fun.

 

[C0untZer0]

Exactly what kind of holster do these things fit into?

They may meet some NFA concocted definition of a pistol, but they don't seem like pistols to me.