223 reload primers

[W.E.G.]

If you aren't using a case gage, you are just guessing. You might guess lucky if you follow a few crude safeguard steps such as those outlined in the instructions from the various die manufacturers.

Or, you might be off by a few thousandths.

What's a few thousandths of an inch when you are dealing with tens of thousands of pounds per square inch pressure?

Yes. You need a case gage.

If you are only using that brass in that gun, and its a fixed-breech gun (in your case, a single shot), you can actually get by with just neck-sizing the brass. Neck-sizing will limit primer back-out if firing under-pressure loads, as headspace will be minimized. However, that neck-sized ammo will be unsuitablle for firing in other rifles of the same caliber.

As for the some do it and others don't, you are dealing with the vagaries of brass ductility under high pressure. Until you increase your pressures to achieve consistent obturation of the brass, irregularities are to be expected.

Use a faster powder, such as TAC or H4895.
Raise your pressures to around 55,000 PSI, and I promise you won't find any spent cases with primers backing out.

 

[Tinybob]

Thank you for the explanation. Now I understand.

 

[SC_Dave]

I don't want to hijack this thread but my question is know on the same line.

I load 223 for my AR, I also use Varget at 25.0 grns under a 55grn FMJ BT. While I'm not having primer problems is Varget too slow for my use as well?
Thanks! SCD

 

[W.E.G.]

Varget at 25.0 grns under a 55grn FMJ BT

If 44,000 psi, on a cartridge that normally runs at 55,000-62,000 psi in factory ammo, suits you then keep using it.
You are barely making 2900 fps out of a 20" barrel.

Even at that low pressure, you are still at 100%+ loading density with Varget.
Not that there is anything inherently wrong with reasonably-compressed powder charges.

You would need to run it all the way to 26.8 grains Varget with a 55 at 2.250" oal in order to even make 55,000 psi.
At that point you are at 110%+ loading density.
In my assessment, I'd be asking myself what am I doing if it gets to that point in the compressed-powder situation.

I wouldn't use Varget for 55 grain loads if I had other choices.
SAAMI max is over 62,000 psi.

By contrast, that same 26.8 grains - but with TAC instead of Varget - with a 55 at 2.250" makes 57,000 psi at 99.8% loading density.
And it makes 3100 fps. Which still leaves you some breathing room to go up.

As always, these numbers are just calculations obtained by Quickload, and reality-checked with my own experience loading .223/5.56 for decades. Your mileage may vary. Reduce starting loads by a reasonable amount, and work-up to be sure nothing wierd happens in YOUR gun.

 

[W.E.G.]

Oh, and I will mention too, when you start loading .223/5.56 to honest 5.56 pressures, please use a thick-enough primer.

If you use those crummy CCI 400 or Winchester standard small rifle primers or Remington 6 1/2, you will pimple primers sure as shooting.

I've used CCI 450 primers for my 5.56 ammo for 20 years. No more pimple primers.

See generally: http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

 

[charly195]

Hi,
i rode about your problem and remember that i had the same problem few years ago.
I think their are probably 3 sources for the primerseatback after firing:
rough/coarse chamberwalls,
low amount of powder ( but in the range of sierra loaddata)
and a little bit to much headspace on the fl sizing die.
All three together produced the same problem. at first i checked the the die setting and corrected a little bit, then i polished chamber inner sides.
and than the load works in my .30-06.
Hope it also helps to your problem.
(excuse my english, i am from bavaria)

 

[Laphroaig]

I've used 24.6 Varget with 55 gr. bullets for years in 2 different AR's and a bolt gun and never had primers backing out. I'd look into excessive headspace as your problem.

 

[Rule3]

OK, here is my "simple" test ,reply.

Shoot some factory ammo (it's cheap) do the primers do the same thing??

If not then perhaps you have reamed the pockets out to much

All this is guess work without actually seeing them.

 

[charly195]

oh sorry i forgot to mention, that i had the same problem with a load in my Mauser 98 ( build in 1997) in .30-06 with 200grn Norma PPC and a load of 44.5grn N 150.
Other cartridge, other gun, but the same problem. But solved this way!
Thank you

 

[SC_Dave]

If 44,000 psi, on a cartridge that normally runs at 55,000-62,000 psi in factory ammo, suits you then keep using it.
You are barely making 2900 fps out of a 20" barrel.

Even at that low pressure, you are still at 100%+ loading density with Varget.
Not that there is anything inherently wrong with reasonably-compressed powder charges.

You would need to run it all the way to 26.8 grains Varget with a 55 at 2.250" oal in order to even make 55,000 psi.
At that point you are at 110%+ loading density.
In my assessment, I'd be asking myself what am I doing if it gets to that point in the compressed-powder situation.

I wouldn't use Varget for 55 grain loads if I had other choices.
SAAMI max is over 62,000 psi.

By contrast, that same 26.8 grains - but with TAC instead of Varget - with a 55 at 2.250" makes 57,000 psi at 99.8% loading density.
And it makes 3100 fps. Which still leaves you some breathing room to go up.

As always, these numbers are just calculations obtained by Quickload, and reality-checked with my own experience loading .223/5.56 for decades. Your mileage may vary. Reduce starting loads by a reasonable amount, and work-up to be sure nothing wierd happens in YOUR gun.

Thanks WEG, I use them for practice/plinking but I've been looking for a reason to switch from Target anyway. It's stick as you know and I don't like the way my powder thrower chops it.
SCD

 

[W.E.G.]

If not then perhaps you have reamed the pockets out to much

Primer pocket reaming is only relevant in the context of removing the crimp from swaged pockets.

I'll never say never, except to say that I've never seen BACKED-OUT primers associated with crimp removal.
Every backed-out primer I have ever seen has beent the product of a too-light powder charge.

Now, if you have primers literally FALLING OUT, the cause is most likely a too-heavy powder charge, or brass that has been reloaded beyond its useful life.

In view of the OP's exceptionally light powder charge, and based on my own experience playing with light charges, I give no weight to the supposition that the OP's problem of backed-out primers has anything to do with reaming crimped pockets.

 

[W.E.G.]

One more caveat about too-light powder charges.

I experimented with 38 grains Varget and 150 grain bullets in a 1903 Springfield.
Trying to combat the pile-driver-on-a-broomstick effect that gun has with full power ammo.

Once I got the powder charge down to 38 grains (normal charge Varget for that bullet in '06 is around 50 grains), recoil was noticeably diminished.

HOWEVER, the necks on the cases didn't seal, so this allowed substantial blow-by of gas around the case during firing.
One might initially say "So what?"
Well, here's what: That gas grabbed little particles of schmutz, and fired the schmutz into my face on each discharge of the rifle. Very unpleasant. Even at a mere 25,000 psi or so, schmutz partles get a good head of steam. Enough to sting your face for sure. If you thought you had a flinch from recoil using normal ammo...

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I don't want to hijack this thread but my question is know on the same line.

I load 223 for my AR, I also use Varget at 25.0 grns under a 55grn FMJ BT. While I'm not having primer problems is Varget too slow for my use as well?
Thanks! SCD

Like I said above, that is my target load and it's very accurate in my bolt action rifle. If I'm going out to longer distances I up the charge to 26.0gr Varget with no loss in accuracy.

The bullet I'm using is a 55gr SGK #1390. Very good bullet!

 

[Tinybob]

Buying a Lyman headspace gauge now.

 

[murf]

variance in primer pocket diameter will make this happen. if you hand prime you can feel some primers seat harder, or softer, than others. a larger diameter pocket will require less pressure to reseat the primer.

murf

p.s. was answering post #25 tinybob

 

[Laphroaig]

In view of the OP's exceptionally light powder charge

The Nosler manual gives Varget starting load at 23.0 grains with 55 grain bullets. I think that your assessment of this load is entirely based on guickload computer simulation. Myself, the OP and other posters have manufactured accurate .223 ammo using similar amounts of Varget. That is not a light load. Not minimum to the extent to cause primers to back out in a SAAMI spec chamber.

 

[W.E.G.]

I don't dispute that you read that in a Nosler manual.

I do maintain that 23.0 grains Varget with a 55 grain bullet is a light load. I know that from experience. Quickload only corroborates that.

Again, if that load works well for you, and with your handloading methods, by all means keep using it. I don't assert that it is unsafe. I do assert that load will allow primers to back out if there is any wiggle room in headspace.

 

[Walkalong]

Like I said above, that is my target load and it's very accurate in my bolt action rifle. If I'm going out to longer distances I up the charge to 26.0gr Varget with no loss in accuracy.

The bullet I'm using is a 55gr SGK #1390. Very good bullet!

I have some Varget leftover, so I guess I need to try this.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have some Varget leftover, so I guess I need to try this.

What happened is, when I looked at Lyman #49 the 25.0gr Varget load was marked as potential most accurate so I gave that a try first. I was amazed how accept was. I played around with other charges and the 26.0gr load matched the 25.0gr load very closely. Lyman is amazing lol. Of course junk bullets are not as accurate but those Sierra bullets seem to be the best I tried.

 

[Laphroaig]

55 Vmax aren't too shabby either.

 

[Tinybob]

I've had good luck with 70gr Speer SP at the same charge also.