.223 seater die suggestions needed

[HJ857]

OK, I recently have been trying out some soft point 55 grain bullets. My OAL has been all over the place with the same seater die adjustment.

Finally figured out that the bullets are not consistent at all, primarily the soft tip is of varying lengths. If I target an OAL of 2.225, I can get lengths from 2.210 to 2.240.

I use a basic Lee seater die which I'm pretty sure just pushes down on the tip of the bullet.

I'm thinking that a seater die that engages the ogive is a better method, even though I realize that there are variances here as well.

I've been considering the Redding Competition die with the micrometer adjuster.

I do not require bench rest accuracy rounds, since I'm using a fairly basic Bushmaster 16" M4. But I do want consistently loaded rounds.

Any thoughts or suggestions on other dies or any other aspect of bullet seating?

Thanks all.


edited: I mis-stated this sentence. "I'm not thinking that a seater die that engages the ogive is a better method, even though I realize that there are variances here as well."

It reads correctly now.

 

[BobCat]

If you are wise, you will wait for additional replies before taking any action.

With that said, my Lee .223 seater has a steel cylinder under the top seating depth button, that is supposed to engage the ogive - but seemed to be engaging the tip instead.

Simply enlarging the central hole in this cylinder - to something less than 0.2 inches but larger than where it started - allows it to engage the ogive and not deform the tip.

If you measure using a similar add-on to your dial caliper - Stoney Point makes a tool like this - instead of measuring from the tip to the case head, you will find the length is very consistent. Measuring from the tip is suspect because the tips are not as uniform as the ogive.

Look, this is just what some guy on the internet told you, so don't tear up anything by boring / drilling on it until you are convinced you understand both the problem and the solution, ok?

Regards,
Andrew

 

[Walkalong]

A seater with a stem that seats using the Ogive is best. The consistency of your Ogive's jump to the rifling is important, not the O.A.L. (Some bullets are inconsistent here as well though)(some seat them "into" the lands)

Redding Competition seaters are about as good as it gets short of custom dies. Forster Benchrest seaters are outstanding as well. Niel Jones is another excellent choice.

Believe it or not, the Lee seater with the floating seater stem that comes with their rifle collet die set is also very good.

 

[LB7_Driver]

I strongly recommend the Redding Competition seater. Over the past couple years I have upgraded my seater dies to this seater die and am very happy with the results.

 

[ants]

Don't blame the equipment yet

If you want more perfect ammo, get the Redding Competition setup or the Forster benchrest stuff. Both are absolutely excellent. But you need to use excellent brass and bullets to get excellent results from them. Redding and Forster dies will make lousy ammo if the brass and bullets are lousy.

HOWEVER, you may be misinterpreting your measurements. It is most likely that the Lee seating stem is bearing properly upon the ogive and not the tip. It is likely that each soft point tip is slightly deformed and that is skewing your overall length measurement. It is equally likely that your bullets don't have the same ogive, which will affect the seating depth of the bullet into the case.

Very often, I buy bullets and find they are not consistent. Thus, the resulting ammo may or may not perform consistently. But I don't blame the equipment unless I can prove it. Go out and test your load to see if it groups nicely. If not, try different bullets.

 

[HJ857]

HOWEVER, you may be misinterpreting your measurements. It is most likely that the Lee seating stem is bearing properly upon the ogive and not the tip. It is likely that each soft point tip is slightly deformed and that is skewing your overall length measurement. It is equally likely that your bullets don't have the same ogive, which will affect the seating depth of the bullet into the case.

I was wondering if this could be the case. Let's say this is true in that it's more or less just variance of the bullet tips that is causing the OAL problem.

Can I find a more or less middle ground for the seater die and leave it there? And if I do that can I trust that the bullets are being seated reasonably consistently despite the OAL?

For the sake of the discussion, let's assume that the ogive is "reasonably" consistent and that the bigger problem is the deformation of the tips.

Just as a note, I use the same class dies for a couple other cartridges and do not have this problem.

 

[Cypress]

First of all I really like Lee dies but have never used them without disassembling them and doing a little back yard machine work. They always seem to have some burrs. I had a hard time getting 55 grain V-max to have consistent OAL until I sanded out the seater plug quite a bit. After that they worked great. The only bullets that measure much off now are the ones with obvious deformities. Just out of curiosity I loaded some really bad tipped bullets and some perfect ones and shot a 10 shot group at 100 yds. A dime would have covered that group so I don't worry about it much anymore.

 

[SSN Vet]

I have the same issue with FMJBT bullets....

the bullet length is all over the place as some tips aren't as "long and pointy" as others.

I'm not pushing a max. load, and I'm not shooting a bench rest competition, so I set the Lee die to keep my OAL from 2.212 to 2.260....

that's 2.219 +/-.007

look at a Starret rule with graduations down to 1/64".....

+/-.007" is less than half of that finest graduation.

Ever heard the old adage "you don't measure with a micrometer what your gonna' cut with a chainsaw"?

IMHO, if your not loading match grade bullets, it's pointless to sweat a couple thousandths of an inch on the OAL measure.

 

[Sunray]

Your cases all the same length?

 

[rcmodel]

Case length has no effect on OAL.

rcmodel

 

[dagger dog]

I use the seater die that comes with the Lee Delux Collet die set in .223, and have had good consistancy. I also have the micrometer style seater die from RCBS in .308 cal and just on a whim decided to see how the die was put together, yes it had a micrometer style readout, but the inner workings are just two tight fittings over the regular type seating stem, but I really can't gripe 'cause the thing works well.

If I had the bucks I would go with the Wilson bench rest style seater the one used with an arbor type press or hammer it supports the outside of the case neck and has a true micrometer depth adjustment.

I think you can send in one of your bullets to Lee and they will custom machine the piece that contacts the bullet in their free floating seating die they can machine it to contact the ogive for extreme consistancy.

 

[04JRB]

I have been using the Lee seater die for .223 for some time now. I recently purchased a Redding Competition seater die, and I really like it. I purchased this because i shoot several different loads in .223 and was getting frustrated every time I wanted to load a different projectile (accuracy load, varmint load, hunting load, plinking, etc...), all required me to re-set the depth. Redding made this much, much easier for me to do. no trial and error after the first time. Although, I havent had the die long enough to give a range report, but I have loaded several hundred rounds so far. Im not expecting theaccuracy to improve a whole lot, maybe a little more consistancy in the tolerances.

I will most likely buy one for my new .308 as well, because of the same scenerio. I dont think its worth the cost for the other rifles because I dont switch projectiles much (i.e. .270 hunting rifle, I only really use one load for it.) for the two calibers I shoot most, its definately worth it. But there are several other calibers that I think my current Lee set up is just fine.

I also had my eye on the RCBS version too, for cheaper. The Sportsmans Warehouse by me only had the redding in stock. I am still interested in the RCBS for .308, if anybody has anything to comment on them compared to Redding.

 

[amlevin]

If you measure using a similar add-on to your dial caliper - Stoney Point makes a tool like this - instead of measuring from the tip to the case head, you will find the length is very consistent

A strong +1 on this statement. It makes no sense to seat a bullet by the ogive and then measure it using the tip.

 

[45ACPUSER]

Its the bullets, and if want an eye opener just go measure some "match" Sierra MK's and how they vary in OAL .....

 

[HJ857]

Thanks all, the replies have been a lot of help and it's really appreciated.

I'm going to take the bullet comparator advice for now, and decide on a new seater die later on.

I had difficulty figuring out what the Stoney Point tool was. That comparator that attaches to any caliper is now a Hornady product and they call it the Lock-N-Load bullet comparator.

I already have a Stoney Point overall length gauge, so I'm expecting smooth sailing once I get the new tools set up.

 

[HJ857]

Update.

I received the Hornady bullet comparator Saturday the 5th. Used my Stoney Point Length Gauge to find the maximum OAL.

The max length with the soft point bullets measured out to be 1.997", reducing that by the usual .040" left me with 1.957" and too long to fit into a standard AR mag. This is measuring from the bullet ogive and not the bullet tip.

So I decided on a final length of 1.925" which fits into my MagPul's just fine. My previous OAL was 1.895" - so a good bit of difference. I could extend to 1.930 but I was a little concerned with developing feed issues (as it turned out I had no feed problems with the 1.925" loads).

As you guys indicated previously, measuring from the ogive was very consistent, even with cheap bullets.

I tested 21 rounds this weekend with the new bullet seating. I was only shooting at 50 yards, I did three tests with my previous loads and got the usual 2-3" groupings. The new OAL loads came in at a hair over 1" for 12 shots, and a bit under 1.5 for a 9 shot string.

My little Bushmaster M4 isn't the dog I had thought it was!

Again, many thanks to all that helped me out on this.

 

[Bullet]

04JRB
I recently purchased a Redding Competition seater die, and I really like it. I purchased this because i shoot several different loads in .223 and was getting frustrated every time I wanted to load a different projectile (accuracy load, varmint load, hunting load, plinking, etc...), all required me to re-set the depth. Redding made this much, much easier for me to do. no trial and error after the first time.

If your changing your seating die for different bullets all you have to do is make a dummy cartridge (no powder no primer) for each bullet you use. Then the next time you have to adjust your die simply place your dummy cartridge in the shell holder with the seating die stem backed out (long) and then turn the seating stem down until it just contacts the bullet and your die is set for these bullets again.