.225 Winchester revisited

[Nature Boy]

I'm learning as I read this so bear with me for the stupid questions. To go from rimmed to semi-rimmed do you turn the rim down on a lathe?

 

[dh1633pm]

My dad shoots and collects the 225. He has a mother load of brass and supplies for loading it. He has two rifles in the caliber. He thinks it got a bad rap from the gun media. He might be willing to part with some brass, but I would have to ask.

 

[spitballer]

bear with me for the stupid questions...

...not any more stupid than mine are! In his article Mr. Trzoniec describes the .225 as "semi-rimmed", and it does appear to have a shallow indentation forward of the rim. I'm curious as to why the indentation is necessary, unless it's to offset the smaller rim to insure reliable extraction. Interesting. Seems to me this cartridge could thus be used with either a bolt or lever action. Makes me curious as to how this design was arrived at, and what ideas were being kicked around at the time...

 

[the Black Spot]

Possibly make brass from .444 marlin?

 

[BWB]

The reasoning at the time was to make a "new and different" case that would stack in bolt action magazines and use the standard '06 bolt face. Perhaps the Winchester boys were trying to hitch their wagon to the reputation of the 219 Zipper for marketing purposes - they undoubtedly knew Remington was about to unveil their appropriation of the 22-250, and were trying not to be left behind in the varmint market.
Keep in mind that the .225 will do nothing that the 22-250 will not do as well or better, and cannot match its performance at the upper end.
As a commercial failure, its exit was hastened by Remington's bringing that well established wildcat into the factory/SAAMI fold.
All this is good fun, which is what this hobby is all about, but trying to resurrect the 225 Win beyond feeding and enjoying existing rifles just doesn't make much sense.

 

[spitballer]

trying to resurrect the 225 Win beyond feeding and enjoying existing rifles just doesn't make much sense...

...thanks for being succinct on this, development of ammunition is perhaps best directed to the research threads. Nevertheless anecdotal information regarding the development of arms and ammunition can be enlightening, even humorous: while researching the development of multiplex loads by the military I had to laugh when the Navy document described the difficulty the researchers had using a chronograph indoors.

Thanks again for responses.

 

[Jim Watson]

Mr. Trzoniec describes the .225 as "semi-rimmed", and it does appear to have a shallow indentation forward of the rim. I'm curious as to why the indentation is necessary, unless it's to offset the smaller rim to insure reliable extraction. Interesting. Seems to me this cartridge could thus be used with either a bolt or lever action. Makes me curious as to how this design was arrived at, and what ideas were being kicked around at the time...

The usual reason given for calling the .225 "semi-rimmed" is that, even though it has a clear and obvious rim, unlike the Swift, it still headspaces on the shoulder of the Model 70.

That old article I referenced made the point that it could be treated as rimmed for use in actions made for it and difficult to set up with rimless extractor.

Why Winchester went with such an odd design is probably buried in the minutes of design meetings of long ago.
Maybe their success with .243 over .244 went to their head and they thought they could do it again.
Turns out they would have done better to go back to an earlier era when they followed the .257 Remington Roberts with the .257 Winchester Roberts; and just put their headstamp on .22-250 to compete head to head with Remington.

Ed Matunas once wrote that although they were still selling .220 Swift ammo, they would never make another Swift rifle, they were too scared of the stick-slip phenomenon in eroded throats causing kaBooms and getting them sued.


The little groove ahead of the rim is common in rimmed cartridges.
It is to give a clean flat front face to the rim, without a radius as would be left by the drawing die. Easier to just cut a groove than to try to come out exactly flush with the case body.