I recently bought a CZ452 Special. It is essentially the Military Trainer, but with a walnut stained birch stock. It is actually pretty nice, someone mistook the wood for walnut and thought I had a Lux. Anyway, I was wondering if anyone owning a Lux or Military Training rifle had a specific ammo they preferred. I am sure that with the length of the barrel, any subsonic match ammo becomes super-sonic. I am actually somewhat interested in seeing how some of the 1400fps high velocity ammunition acts in the rifle. I bet some ammo would actually get around 1500fps. Guess its time to get a chronograph. So what ammo are you guys using, anyone try the 60gr Aguila subsonic?
.22lr ammo for CZ 452 24.8" barrel
- Thread starter lopezni
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desidog
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The 60gr are made for guns with a very fast twist, like 1:7....common in an AR barrel/22converter setup...so probably won't be the best in your CZ.
What you want to do is go to the store and buy one of every flavor they've got for .22lr - and see which one performs best. .22s are finicky and makes and models don't always respond the same. Besides, comparing targets with different ammo is fun!
What you want to do is go to the store and buy one of every flavor they've got for .22lr - and see which one performs best. .22s are finicky and makes and models don't always respond the same. Besides, comparing targets with different ammo is fun!
sumpnz
Member
The powder capacity of the .22lr is so low that you actually get maximum velocity from ~16" barrels. Longer than that and the powder runs out of ability to overcome the friction of the barrel and the bullets actually slow down.
Sub-sonic rounds will not go super-sonic in your rifle, and the high velocity is more likely to be 1300fps than 1500fps.
Also, be aware that nearly every .22lr owner has found that it requires experimentation with many brands, weights, and velocities to find the one that is most accurate. Even if you have two of the same brand/style of .22lr rifles, even if they are of consecutive serial numbers, they can have a different preference for ammo.
Generally speaking the standard velocity and sub-sonic rounds will produce the best accuracy. The high velocity and hyper velocity will tend to be of lower accuracy. But again, every gun is different so you have to try them out to see what's best. Bulk ammo (anything found in 500+ round packages) is often the worst for accuracy, but some people have excellent luck with certain brands (not for competition but for informal target practice or hunting).
Sub-sonic rounds will not go super-sonic in your rifle, and the high velocity is more likely to be 1300fps than 1500fps.
Also, be aware that nearly every .22lr owner has found that it requires experimentation with many brands, weights, and velocities to find the one that is most accurate. Even if you have two of the same brand/style of .22lr rifles, even if they are of consecutive serial numbers, they can have a different preference for ammo.
Generally speaking the standard velocity and sub-sonic rounds will produce the best accuracy. The high velocity and hyper velocity will tend to be of lower accuracy. But again, every gun is different so you have to try them out to see what's best. Bulk ammo (anything found in 500+ round packages) is often the worst for accuracy, but some people have excellent luck with certain brands (not for competition but for informal target practice or hunting).
From my notes from my 452 barrel shortening project. actual measured velocities:
24" Pre-shortening velocities:
----------------------------------
Federal Value Bulk 36gr: 1243fps
RWS Rifle Target 40gr: 1064fps
CCI Velocitor 40gr: 1345fps
20.5" Post-shortening velocities:
------------------------------------
Federal Value Bulk 36gr: 1258fps
RWS Rifle Target 40gr: 1060fps
CCI Velocitor 40gr: 1415fps - MOA w/ scope at 50yds
24" is too long for max velocity in a .22. The pressure drops and the bullet starts to slow down from friction. However 24" in that rifle is.... amazing for iron-sight accuracy. Oh man.
If your gun is like mine, Try the velocitors. Not only will the be the highest velocity even at 24", they will shoot MOA from the bench. Best hunting combo ever. A full 40gr bullet moving faster than the 36gr high velocity ones. Stingers have too long a case and don't chamber well in my gun. If mine is typical of the CZ, then yours will have a snug bore and short throat.
Good luck with your magic wand.
-Daizee
24" Pre-shortening velocities:
----------------------------------
Federal Value Bulk 36gr: 1243fps
RWS Rifle Target 40gr: 1064fps
CCI Velocitor 40gr: 1345fps
20.5" Post-shortening velocities:
------------------------------------
Federal Value Bulk 36gr: 1258fps
RWS Rifle Target 40gr: 1060fps
CCI Velocitor 40gr: 1415fps - MOA w/ scope at 50yds
24" is too long for max velocity in a .22. The pressure drops and the bullet starts to slow down from friction. However 24" in that rifle is.... amazing for iron-sight accuracy. Oh man.
If your gun is like mine, Try the velocitors. Not only will the be the highest velocity even at 24", they will shoot MOA from the bench. Best hunting combo ever. A full 40gr bullet moving faster than the 36gr high velocity ones. Stingers have too long a case and don't chamber well in my gun. If mine is typical of the CZ, then yours will have a snug bore and short throat.
Good luck with your magic wand.
-Daizee
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rangerruck
Member
anything from; federal, winchester.
anything from ; eley, aguila, golden eagle-all made by eley.
anything from cci, wolf.
american eagle red box, made by federal, a real cheap sleeper.
for bulk , anything federal or winchester, avoid cci bulk.
Notice I never mentioned remington?
From the above list, you should find several ammo's that work quite well.
there are others , pmc, armscor, dynamit, rws, lapua, etc., but they are
very expensive, and from the above list, you should find one that works
quite well for you.
Aguila 60 grainers are mostly a hit/miss prop., most 22's are not fast twist
enough to stabilize them, except for the old remmy's like 550. and 552's, that
were made to shoot all three 22 rounds equally well. My speedmaster dumps
them in the same hole at 50 yds.
anything from ; eley, aguila, golden eagle-all made by eley.
anything from cci, wolf.
american eagle red box, made by federal, a real cheap sleeper.
for bulk , anything federal or winchester, avoid cci bulk.
Notice I never mentioned remington?
From the above list, you should find several ammo's that work quite well.
there are others , pmc, armscor, dynamit, rws, lapua, etc., but they are
very expensive, and from the above list, you should find one that works
quite well for you.
Aguila 60 grainers are mostly a hit/miss prop., most 22's are not fast twist
enough to stabilize them, except for the old remmy's like 550. and 552's, that
were made to shoot all three 22 rounds equally well. My speedmaster dumps
them in the same hole at 50 yds.
interlock
Member
i have one and it likes rws subs, eley subs and winchester hi velocity. just try a load, they are pretty cheap
Bailey Boat
Member
Whatever you do KEEP RECORDS!!!!! If you're like me you'll forget the results in a day or two and then it's back to the drawing board..... ground zero...... Then you have to go back to the range and shoot lots of rounds to come back to the same point, woe is me, woe is me..... Having to shoot is SUCH a pain.... (wink, wink)......
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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- Nov 14, 2007
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- 13,146
Yep - like they said, subsonic and standard vel ammo actually begin *slowing down* somewhere around 14" of barrel length, give or take. It will actually be slower than it would come out of a 16" bbl, by a fairly significant margin. Now with hi-vel & hyper-vel ammo, I'm not so sure this is true - my guess is that they don't begin slowing down until 16, 18, or even 20"; somewhere in there.
For a bargain, Wolf "Match Target" .22 shoots very well from multiple rifles I have.
sumpnz
Member
Varmint Al's website links to a study done by Bullberry with a .17HMR barrel. They started out at 22" and cut it back in 1" increments to 10". They found max velocity at around 19". But the difference between 18-22" was minimal. Under 18" and velocity started to drop off quickly.
Would have been interesting to see them do the test with a barrel that started at 26" to see how fast velocity dropped off after 22".
The HMR is burning quite a bit more powder in a smaller bore than any .22lr. So even the hottest .22lr will probably hit max velocity at a shorter barrel length than those .17HMRs.
'Course the reason for some .22lr's to have barrels longer than 16-18" is for increased sight radius when using iron sights. That or aesthetics. There's no other inherent accuracy advantage to a longer barrel. In fact I would expect a longer barrel to have lower theoretical accuracy due to the increased chance of manufacturing imperfections, plus reduced stiffness due to the longer length. Vibrations during firing will result in larger muzzle displacements in longer barrels, all else being equal.
Would have been interesting to see them do the test with a barrel that started at 26" to see how fast velocity dropped off after 22".
The HMR is burning quite a bit more powder in a smaller bore than any .22lr. So even the hottest .22lr will probably hit max velocity at a shorter barrel length than those .17HMRs.
'Course the reason for some .22lr's to have barrels longer than 16-18" is for increased sight radius when using iron sights. That or aesthetics. There's no other inherent accuracy advantage to a longer barrel. In fact I would expect a longer barrel to have lower theoretical accuracy due to the increased chance of manufacturing imperfections, plus reduced stiffness due to the longer length. Vibrations during firing will result in larger muzzle displacements in longer barrels, all else being equal.
I sold a CZ 452 something something, forgot what it was called. Anyway I sold it to this woman and it had a 28" barrel on it. She refused to scope it and after several head shots on rabbits at 75-100yrs w/ iron sights. She had "bunny bopper" engraved on the barrel.
sumpnz
Member
That would be the Ultra Lux.
That is the benefit of a loooong sight radius when using irons.
At 50 yards the 60 grain bullet tumbles and goes through the target sideways. Wrong twist as stated. Wolf MT gives about as good as it gets from most CZ's for target. For a cheap hunting load Winchester Expert's shoot rather well from my 452. CCI Mini Mags is my first choice for all around use.
Runningman
Member
Those are excellent accurate 22 rifles. You might be interested to know the CZ 452 trainers don't use Birch wood. It is actually Beech wood.
All 22 tend to have there own personality on ammo preference. But my CZ 452 Trainer makes small groups with German made SK Standard Plus 40 grain target ammo and the Mexican made Aguila SuperExtra high velocity 40 grain. Both these loads also tend to group well at 50 yards in my other 22s.
I have great luck with mine using American Eagle 38 grain. Up to about 70 yards that is. Past that distance the accuracy suffers somewhat. At 50 yards it will shoot 1/2" groups, while at 100 yards it shoots about 2" groups. I believe this is due to the bullet going transonic at about 65 yards or so.
If I switch to Wolf match I get groups of about 1.25" or less at 100 yards. Groups of 1" or less are common, but I can't count on it to shoot them every time. At 50 yards however it groups only slightly better than American Eagle.
If I switch to Wolf match I get groups of about 1.25" or less at 100 yards. Groups of 1" or less are common, but I can't count on it to shoot them every time. At 50 yards however it groups only slightly better than American Eagle.
I swear it looks like birch. I have sold several of these rifles and this looks totally different. I get weird CZ's in all the time. They'll have two different types of checkering on the same model. I will see one rifle with a plain walnut stock and the next time I get one it will have gorgeous stripping and figure, sometimes better than a model 70 supergrade.
22-rimfire
Member
It will still be a standard velocity round like Wolf ME, RWS, or Eley Tenex. You will need to experiment, but generally the more you pay, the more consistant and generally the more accurate it is. The trick is to find a low cost 22LR that shoots well versus the higher dollar stuff. My "best" ammo is generally Wolf MT (match target) which is a middle priced 22LR ammo as I pretty much refuse to spend more except for occasional testing.
Sako Shooter
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I have that exact rifle and have done some extensive ammo testing. This is what mine likes:
Hunting:
SK Subsonic HP
RWS Subsonic HP
Eley Subsonic HP
Winchester Subsonic HP
Remington Subsonic HP
Cheap bulk ammo:
American Eagle 38 grain HP
Winchester 333s
Remington Golden Bullet
Match Ammo:
Wolf, Eley, Lapua
The trainer really likes the European ammo, and favors subsonic ammo. I shot an average of eight, 5 shot groups with RWS subsonic that averaged
.409". Your Trainer should average between .4-.5 at 50 yards with ammo it likes. If it averages in the .3s, it is exceptional in my opinion. If you locate the right smith to work the trigger it will put a smile on your face also.
You may also want to play with the torque settings on the action screws. Mine is at 22lbs (rear action screw) and 20lb (front barrel lug screw). You may also want to sand out the stock in front of the barrel lug to "semi-float" the barrel. Be sure the seal the wood afterwards.
As far as the "Beech" (it is Beech BTW) stock goes, I think you will find it is more substantial than Walnut. The Lux is the same rifle with the Walnut stock and actually weighs less that the Trainer. While walnut is the more prized, beech is actually the harder wood of the two. Not only that, I have seen some Beech stocks that look quite exotic.
PM me with any questions you might have as I know that rifle very well. Ray.
Hunting:
SK Subsonic HP
RWS Subsonic HP
Eley Subsonic HP
Winchester Subsonic HP
Remington Subsonic HP
Cheap bulk ammo:
American Eagle 38 grain HP
Winchester 333s
Remington Golden Bullet
Match Ammo:
Wolf, Eley, Lapua
The trainer really likes the European ammo, and favors subsonic ammo. I shot an average of eight, 5 shot groups with RWS subsonic that averaged
.409". Your Trainer should average between .4-.5 at 50 yards with ammo it likes. If it averages in the .3s, it is exceptional in my opinion. If you locate the right smith to work the trigger it will put a smile on your face also.
You may also want to play with the torque settings on the action screws. Mine is at 22lbs (rear action screw) and 20lb (front barrel lug screw). You may also want to sand out the stock in front of the barrel lug to "semi-float" the barrel. Be sure the seal the wood afterwards.
As far as the "Beech" (it is Beech BTW) stock goes, I think you will find it is more substantial than Walnut. The Lux is the same rifle with the Walnut stock and actually weighs less that the Trainer. While walnut is the more prized, beech is actually the harder wood of the two. Not only that, I have seen some Beech stocks that look quite exotic.
PM me with any questions you might have as I know that rifle very well. Ray.
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CowboyTim
Member
I have the same rifle, mine likes 40gr bullets. Shoots good with Federal target ammo, best accuracy so far has been with Winchester Wildcat 40gr.
ACP
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My understanding is CZ 22's generally do not like hi-velocity ammo.
I would buy seven to 10 individual boxes (50 rounds) of various 22 brands. Personally, I would stay away from the ultra inexpensive (i.e. Golden Bullet) and Match stuff (Ely) and concentrate on the mid-range ammo.
My CZ 453 with a varmint contour barrel loves CCI standard velocity (1040fps) 40-gr. target ammo. It is also fond of 40-gr. Federal ammo. It did not like CCI Stingers or Remington Golden Bullets (but my Ruger 10/22 loves Golden Bullets).
Most .22 shooters also don't clean their barrrels as often as centerfire shooters; the wax coating on the bullets is supposed to offer some protection.
Every rifle is different, so you have to experiment. But my general advice based on my CZ experience would be:
1. avoid high velocity ammo
2. don't buy extra cheap ammo or ultra-expensive ammo
3. when you find the round that shoots under half an inch at 50 yards, buy it in bulk and stock up on it.
My CZ 453 Varmint with a fixed 4x Nikon and the CCI Std. velocity ammo did 5/16" for five shots at 50 yards from a Caldwell "Rock Jr." rest in 80 degree temps with practiucally no wind about a month ago. I believe it's capable of much less than that with a higher magnification scope and some more practice.
I would buy seven to 10 individual boxes (50 rounds) of various 22 brands. Personally, I would stay away from the ultra inexpensive (i.e. Golden Bullet) and Match stuff (Ely) and concentrate on the mid-range ammo.
My CZ 453 with a varmint contour barrel loves CCI standard velocity (1040fps) 40-gr. target ammo. It is also fond of 40-gr. Federal ammo. It did not like CCI Stingers or Remington Golden Bullets (but my Ruger 10/22 loves Golden Bullets).
Most .22 shooters also don't clean their barrrels as often as centerfire shooters; the wax coating on the bullets is supposed to offer some protection.
Every rifle is different, so you have to experiment. But my general advice based on my CZ experience would be:
1. avoid high velocity ammo
2. don't buy extra cheap ammo or ultra-expensive ammo
3. when you find the round that shoots under half an inch at 50 yards, buy it in bulk and stock up on it.
My CZ 453 Varmint with a fixed 4x Nikon and the CCI Std. velocity ammo did 5/16" for five shots at 50 yards from a Caldwell "Rock Jr." rest in 80 degree temps with practiucally no wind about a month ago. I believe it's capable of much less than that with a higher magnification scope and some more practice.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Beech is harder and denser than walnut but is nowhere near as attractive. American beech is often left where it stands during logging operations because it is so damn hard. Birch, depending on species, is also harder and denser but my experience has indicated that it dents and dings easier than black walnut. It's also typically quite ugly. I would love to have an Ultra Lux in a Lux Turkish walnut stock.
As always, I would urge any .22LR shooter to try as many types of ammo as possible. Every firearm is a law unto itself and you just never know what one will like. Here's what my 452FS does with the much-maligned Remington Golden Bullet. Smallest group is .30", largest is 0.65" for an average of 0.49"@50yds for five consecutive five-shot groups. All of which done with a little Leupold 1-4x centerfire but with no perceived parallax issues.
took some of my fire arms this past weekend for a shoot, and my 452fs included, does not have a 24" barrel but just to give you and idea at 50 yards w/irons shooting centurion lead hp/36gr. i would love to have an ultra-lux but kinda hard to find one now.
my 10 shot group, using irons and a front bag
my 10 shot group, using irons and a front bag
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