Gordon
Member
I love the slightly slimmer and smaller (950 size) discontinued Model 20 D/A and prefer the .25 ACP version as they seem much more reliable .
.22LR Beretta Bobcat?
- Thread starter JCooperfan1911
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i bought a beretta 21 new in the early 1980s. it didn’t feed reliably, a gunsmith worked on it, i put it away and sold it later. i have a taurus pt25ply in 25acp. it is a fine shooter for being a mouse pistol.
in 22lr, for the price of a new beretta, i would get a way more reliable north american arms revolver and plus larger grips. you are reloading neither one quickly in a fight (the beretta 21’s slide is impossible to rack if you carry an extra mag, you must strip a round from the extra mag and reload the tip-up barrel by hand, the taurus pt25ply is rackable).
in 22lr, for the price of a new beretta, i would get a way more reliable north american arms revolver and plus larger grips. you are reloading neither one quickly in a fight (the beretta 21’s slide is impossible to rack if you carry an extra mag, you must strip a round from the extra mag and reload the tip-up barrel by hand, the taurus pt25ply is rackable).
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usp9
Member
The 21a is a nice fun gun to own and shoot. I have two, one a .21lr and the other in .25acp. If I were to carry one it would be the .25 which has proven more reliable than the .22. I agree with many other posters in that the 21a has stiff competition and probably better alternatives based on just about any way you'd rate the qualities of a small concealed carry. Beretta's Pico, for example, has all the features you want except the cheaper ammo. Thin, light, good sights, reliable, good trigger, re-strike and Beretta quality.
I like my model 21a pistols but I believe there are better choices for carry.
I like my model 21a pistols but I believe there are better choices for carry.
MedWheeler
Member
I bought a used (1998-make) Taurus PT22 in 2012. It runs flawlessly with AutoMatch and MiniMags, the only two brands I've tested in it.
I bought a used Bobcat in maybe 2018, but never got around to trying it until early this year. I only had MiniMags with me, and the gun would not run a single magazine of them properly. Maybe it wasn't broken in yet by a previous owner, but it looked to have been fired some. I was disappointed. I wanted to like it because of its pedigree, but I'm not motivated to try too hard to "make it work" because I have too many other options on hand, many of which are still awaiting T&E themselves.
I don't entertain the idea of .22 carry except maybe as a third, or as a second on the trail, as I have a Kel-Tec P32 that fits anywhere a pocket-.22 would. I also have a Ruger LCP-MAX that fits anywhere the Taurus would.
That being said, the PT22 would be my .22 for carry if it came to that (like, suddenly, I was somehow without ammunition in any other load), at least, until I got a Ruger LCP-II Lite-Rack and determined that it worked.
I bought a used Bobcat in maybe 2018, but never got around to trying it until early this year. I only had MiniMags with me, and the gun would not run a single magazine of them properly. Maybe it wasn't broken in yet by a previous owner, but it looked to have been fired some. I was disappointed. I wanted to like it because of its pedigree, but I'm not motivated to try too hard to "make it work" because I have too many other options on hand, many of which are still awaiting T&E themselves.
I don't entertain the idea of .22 carry except maybe as a third, or as a second on the trail, as I have a Kel-Tec P32 that fits anywhere a pocket-.22 would. I also have a Ruger LCP-MAX that fits anywhere the Taurus would.
That being said, the PT22 would be my .22 for carry if it came to that (like, suddenly, I was somehow without ammunition in any other load), at least, until I got a Ruger LCP-II Lite-Rack and determined that it worked.
kBob
Member
I carried a Beretta 21A for about a decade.
I found that it started to have issues feeding as it got older but loading the magazine with one less round seemed to cure that. I found both I used to be ammo picky. Neither liked the long case hyper velocity stuff and both ran best on 40 grain round nose copper washed ammo… get some of our students had great results from that stuff… go figure.
As to cocking effort, much of the resistance to slide movement when firing is cocking the hammer. So cock the hammer THEN pull back the slide and it is much easier.
the sights are tiny, but on a bet I once placed four of seven rounds on a kneeling man target at 100 yards. slow fire all single action and from a roll over prone, but done.
as far as finding those sights in a hurry in bad lighting…. Well no that ain’t happening.
I jokingly referred to my M21A as my “get ‘em off me!” Gun. When possible I practiced at three yards with it, as often at seven. At three the first few shots were always at the head on the target, but at seven COM.
I practiced usually with a couple or three shots, then stopped and reset the DA trigger to practice that first DA round. It I got bad enough I fired only a single DA shot and reset to fire ONLY single DA shots.
for a bit I would hang an orange from a cross piece on the target stand at three yards and shoot single DA shots at that. Hits caused motion and the Orange usually could take ten shots or so of solid 40 grain RN.
needed to be kept clean and needed to be in a holster in the pocket or IWB or ( no comments please) on the ankle.
when I Carried OWB in one of those last century cigarette zippered pouches I carried a spare mag. You know when 80 percent of adults smoked those were neat little carry pouches (I soon learned to carry a book of matches in the front unzippered pocket for when smokers asked for a light, EVERY decent restaurant had free books of matches at checkout) I later found a Davis .380 (ring of fire gun) and spare mag fit the pouch. ( yes I carried empty chamber, but precocked to ease working the slide under stress or one handed)
I basically went to a P32 for pocket carry.
my wife and best friend also carried the M21A as a pocket carry.
They are much larger than the 950 Jet Fire 22 short or .25acp. My best friend carried a .22 short Jet Fire as deep carry where he was not allowed to have a gun for about three years. When not there though he “up graded” to the .22LR M21A in the pocket and generally something larger elsewhere.
Having been in fights, including knife fights, I am convinced that ANY gun beats not having one when needed.
None of the three of us ever needed a M21A “for real” but I will say there was a time or two my hand was in that pocket and the Beretta gave me comfort. More comfort than any knife or contact weapon I could have concealed.
‘Nuff said.
-kBob
I found that it started to have issues feeding as it got older but loading the magazine with one less round seemed to cure that. I found both I used to be ammo picky. Neither liked the long case hyper velocity stuff and both ran best on 40 grain round nose copper washed ammo… get some of our students had great results from that stuff… go figure.
As to cocking effort, much of the resistance to slide movement when firing is cocking the hammer. So cock the hammer THEN pull back the slide and it is much easier.
the sights are tiny, but on a bet I once placed four of seven rounds on a kneeling man target at 100 yards. slow fire all single action and from a roll over prone, but done.
as far as finding those sights in a hurry in bad lighting…. Well no that ain’t happening.
I jokingly referred to my M21A as my “get ‘em off me!” Gun. When possible I practiced at three yards with it, as often at seven. At three the first few shots were always at the head on the target, but at seven COM.
I practiced usually with a couple or three shots, then stopped and reset the DA trigger to practice that first DA round. It I got bad enough I fired only a single DA shot and reset to fire ONLY single DA shots.
for a bit I would hang an orange from a cross piece on the target stand at three yards and shoot single DA shots at that. Hits caused motion and the Orange usually could take ten shots or so of solid 40 grain RN.
needed to be kept clean and needed to be in a holster in the pocket or IWB or ( no comments please) on the ankle.
when I Carried OWB in one of those last century cigarette zippered pouches I carried a spare mag. You know when 80 percent of adults smoked those were neat little carry pouches (I soon learned to carry a book of matches in the front unzippered pocket for when smokers asked for a light, EVERY decent restaurant had free books of matches at checkout) I later found a Davis .380 (ring of fire gun) and spare mag fit the pouch. ( yes I carried empty chamber, but precocked to ease working the slide under stress or one handed)
I basically went to a P32 for pocket carry.
my wife and best friend also carried the M21A as a pocket carry.
They are much larger than the 950 Jet Fire 22 short or .25acp. My best friend carried a .22 short Jet Fire as deep carry where he was not allowed to have a gun for about three years. When not there though he “up graded” to the .22LR M21A in the pocket and generally something larger elsewhere.
Having been in fights, including knife fights, I am convinced that ANY gun beats not having one when needed.
None of the three of us ever needed a M21A “for real” but I will say there was a time or two my hand was in that pocket and the Beretta gave me comfort. More comfort than any knife or contact weapon I could have concealed.
‘Nuff said.
-kBob
ECVMatt
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I sold a ton of both the Bobcats and Jetfires when I was working in a gun store many years ago. I feel that the .25 ACP versions are much better than their rimfire companions. Although ammo is more expensive, the reliability you get from a centerfire and non-lubed cartridge can't be understated.
spraay
Member
The gun in your hand is more useful than the one you leave at home because it's too big to carry.
25acp is a pretty brilliant cartridge for what it is. Its kind of hard to find a pocket 25 that isnt reliable. Even the bottom of the barrel Lorcin 25 is a reliable pistol. Problem is the ammo cost... especially now. I have a good bit of time shooting pocket 25s and 22s. I used to buy one of each when available and practice with the 22 but use the 25 for a bug. I was hoping Ruger would put out an LCP 25 to go along with the 22 but it doesnt look like its going to happen. Carrying a rimfire for protection is pretty gutsy. I have had to many duds through the years to trust it. That being said 22 pocket autos are a lot of fun to plink with once you get them reliable.
swg1
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The one time I had to pull a gun it was a little beretta just like that. Fortunately it was enough to scare away the bum that attacked me. I upgraded to a SP101 after that and then a 40 Hi-Power.
The bum was wearing a lot of heavy Filson wool (surprisingly) and leather sheep skin. Probably about bullet proof from anything coming out of that beretta. While it worked as a deterrent that time, it probably wouldn’t have been all that effective if the bum had pressed the attack.
The bum was wearing a lot of heavy Filson wool (surprisingly) and leather sheep skin. Probably about bullet proof from anything coming out of that beretta. While it worked as a deterrent that time, it probably wouldn’t have been all that effective if the bum had pressed the attack.
Autodidactic
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I've thought of getting one because I don't have a .22 pocket pistol, it seems a natural caliber for such size, and I like the model.
Honestly, I think that in most cases it will serve the purpose.
Autodidactic
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I've found mini mags to be almost 100% reliable (occasional malfunction), where many other brands of .22 LR failed far more in the same gun.
Autodidactic
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Truly, this is one of the most important points. People can pontificate about how anyone can carry full sized guns, or full powered micro guns. But the reality is that a lot of people, including myself, don't want to carry or find it uncomfortable to carry large handguns. For me, the largest I find comfortable and even then are borderline are a .38 snubbie, or my S&W Shield. These I can conceal, but at times aren't comfortable either depending on dress, weather, etc. I find though that a true pocket gun is far more likely to go with me everywhere. I'm currently looking for a micro .380. I have a Tomcat in .32, and that fits the bill for size too.
The other part of this is that a lot of people, especially relative beginners or the recoil averse, do not like even the recoil of many pocket snubbies or micro .380's (LCP, etc). Some people have health issues too that are relevant. Therefore, it's not always helpful when they are lectured about "manning up and you better carry at least a .380/.38 or more powerful." There needs to be a recognition of those who will likely only carry a small pistol, and who want relatively low recoil. That puts us into the mouse calibers. For those people, it's better they carry those than nothing at all.
You are 100% correct. Good post. There is a pretty huge hole in the market right now that happened when all the micro 380s took off and the larger manufacturers abandoned the 25 and 32. You also had the inexpensive 22/25/32 caliber zamak SNS type guns disappear. People make fun of those little pistols but they filled a role for a lot of people who just wanted a small caliber to carry. If someone were to bring back the Raven 25 or RG revolvers and build them with more modern materials for better durability and lighter weight with a low price point they would be popular. Right now if you want something in a small caliber people have to pony up the cash for niche guns that are either expensive or hard to find. There is a big market out there who just want an affordable pocket friendly emergency gun that they are comfortable shooting. They are not looking for shooting lessons or tactical training sessions. Hard to recommend a small pistol to a 55 year old woman with limited strength and weak wrists. There are a couple 22s here and there but I wouldnt ever recommend a silly rimfire for anything outside target shooting and small game hunting. Some people can get away with it because they practice all the time and are good at dealing with the retarded nature of rimfire but most folks are not doing that. Revolvers are a little better.
So "Man UP" and get yourself at least a 9mm with bonded ammo hollowpoint super duper jello destroyers. Also... Safeties are for shmucks and always carry a round in the chamber no matter what. Also make sure to keep your trigger around 3-4 pounds and have a tactile reset you can ride for faster follow up shots. Meanwhile the customer by the counter is 50% bodyfat and cant run 50 feet without tripping over themselves. Its a bit ridiculous. This broad brush gun market has created a stale industry and left a lot of people out. Last old lady I talked to who ....was dead set on getting a pistol ... had strength issues and arthritis. I told her to go down to Dunhams and get a little rough rider with a couple boxes of ammo and a cheap set of earplugs.
A gun that has some potential would be something like the Keltec P17 but they have to put out a version in 25acp along with the 22. LCP22 has potential as well in 25. Most of the pocket 380s would be better suited in 32 for the majority of shooters but also durability.
Shawn Dodson
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I found the Bobcat (and Tomcat) too girthy for comfortable pocket carry. I got a Seecamp LWS32 for pocket carry instead.
No .22 LR bullet will expand when shot from it. Your best choice for a defense load is CCI SGB. The flat nose will crush a slightly larger diameter permanent cavity than LRN or an unexpanded LHP bullet.
Finally, if you experience a misfire the firing pin swages the rim to the breech and you'll need a tool to remove the misfired cartridge from the chamber because the Bobcat has no extractor.
No .22 LR bullet will expand when shot from it. Your best choice for a defense load is CCI SGB. The flat nose will crush a slightly larger diameter permanent cavity than LRN or an unexpanded LHP bullet.
Finally, if you experience a misfire the firing pin swages the rim to the breech and you'll need a tool to remove the misfired cartridge from the chamber because the Bobcat has no extractor.
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Autodidactic
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I agree 100%. Full disclosure, my gun use 90% of the time for carry or HD is a service caliber, from 12 gauge shotgun at home and a full sized Glock to the aforementioned .38 snubbie and Shield in 9mm for carry. I do however carry occassionally a .32 ACP, and if I had a quality .22 pocket rocket, I'd not hesitate to take it to the store once in a while.
I think far too many conversations in the firearm community are binary and reductionist, and focus on the ideal. The realities of where people are at and what they are willing to carry or the degree of training they will engage in vary. Beyond some basic recommendations, or more if they ask directly, brow beating won't help. Is it not true that a vast majority of civilian encounters are ended just by presenting a gun? Then, out of the remaining percentage, a lot of incidents are also ended by any gun fire or strikes.
People will also say that mouse calibers often don't stop people quickly enough. I think that is true. But, even the mouse calibers can break bones or cause severe injury and pain immediately, let alone the psychological impact. Are knives or a baseball bat any better in an average person's hands? Probably worse than a mouse gun for the untrained, weak, or disabled. So, it's on a continuum. Instead of seeing mouse guns solely in the context of firearms, I think maybe it's more appropriate to see them in the continuum of all self defense options, and with that appraisal they may sit more fairly in the middle. Not the best not the worst, again for your average person.
This carries over to the round-in-chamber purists (for civilians, not LE/Military). The only proper way to own a gun is always carried, always round-in-chamber. This too is binary. One, owning a gun or even carrying one is more prepared than much of the population. Some people can't carry due to location or legal reasons. Many people don't have proper training and familiarity yet with firearms to not only feel comfortable with a no-safety, chambered firearm, but arguably shouldn't be carrying such for safety reasons.
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jar
Contributing Member
I have quite a few .380s but for a softer shooting manageable recommendation take a look at the Remington RM380. It's aluminum framed double action with a true slide lock, a slide that is very easy to rack, mag release from both sides, slim with absolutely nothing to catch on clothing. With the flat base magazine I get a good two finger grip while with the magazine finger extension, I can get a full three finger grip. Capacity is 6 +1 rounds and it has shown itself to be very tolerant of ammo type or brand feeding everything I've tried flawlessly.
The flat base magazine is on the blue frame.
Terry G
Member
Do a penetration test at 7 yards with the mini.22's. I think you'll elect to carry something else.
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BigBlue 94
Member
I have a 22 short Beretta like that and a pair of Taurus PT22 knock offs in 22LR. Ive carried one of the Taurii before. But i prefer the .32NAA Guardian: its a few ounces heavier but same size and packs a bigger punch.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
BigBlue 94
Member
The NAA Guardian was close, and fired a 380 necked down to 32... True DAO that took some practice with. Also came in 380, 32ACP, and 25NAA.
380 version
chicharrones
needs more ammo
I owned a .32 ACP Guardian for some time. It was small, it was dense, but it was the hardest pocket gun for me to shoot well and it would actually jam on occasion if I didn't give it a death grip. I had to shoot that gun like I was angry with it for it to function reliably. Besides that, the only gun with more felt recoil in the photo below was the Taurus 85UL when firing +P ammo.
I know some folks really like the NAA Guardian, but it wasn't a long term fit for me and I sold it towards the purchase of another gun. Having said all that, I've never fired a .380 sized Guardian, whether in .32 NAA or .380 ACP.
One thing my Bobcat and Guardian did was to turn me off of blowback pocket guns. Little slides in blowback guns require some stiff recoil springs. Which is why I firmly believe that little grips and stiff recoil springs increase the likelihood of limp wrist type of failures to extract, eject, etc. I don't have those issues with little locked breech pocket guns.
View attachment 1047478
chicharrones
needs more ammo
Back to the Bobcat . . . I really did like plinking with mine back in the day. It was extra satisfying when I'd actually connect with soda cans with that little gun.
You are better prepared than most.
Something is "better than nothing" - I agree.
Fortunately, I don't have to use "better than nothing" as a criteria for my carry.
I'll use the Shield as an example; I have one and it would be (is) easily concealed.
Anywhere I'd rather defend myself with a 32 acp than a Shield 9mm? Nope. Not for a quick trip to the store, not walking the dog, nowhere.
Again, something is "better than nothing". But, lets not use "better than nothing" as a goal if we don't have to.
Ideal? Ideally, I'll not be having to defend myself. Had concealed carry 25+ years and have not needed a single bullet yet.
If I unfortunately do, I'd prefer better ASAP potential than a 22/32 regardless of where - so 9mm minimum is carried, wherever.
The preceding ^ comments were not why I chose to respond, but rather bonus content since I did.
What follows is what prompted me to reply ...
In a situation where fractions of a second of may be the difference in incurring serious or fatal injury, that aint the time for trying to load the gun.
IMO if someone is not comfortable or proficient enough with a pistol to carry it loaded chamber they would be better off with a revolver.
That is from someone that does not personally carry revolvers anymore.
trackskippy
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As we get further and further down into the little guns, especially with someone who has little training or experience, I dont agree. These are not guns for beginners and/or the inexperienced. Very often, even experienced shooters dont do all the well with them.
I think a lot of those people who carry these things would be better off "without" the gun, as that way there is less chance they would do something stupid because they have it, and they actually think they are armed and prepared because they do. And no matter what the gun is, suggesting that they carry them unloaded just makes it even worse and no sense.
These types of guns are not "primary" guns, and many of them arent even good as a backup. Yet, they seem to be pushed pretty so hard on those who shouldnt be using them. And a lot of those people probably shouldn't carry a more realistic gun either. Just "having" a gun doesn't make you armed.
I think a lot of the problem here is, we have different levels of user/carrier knowledge and experience and the mentalities that go with it. The more the experience and training, the lower on the list the smaller guns go as a primary choice.
What Ive never understood too is, if I feel the need to take "a" gun with me to the store for a late-night run, why wouldn't it be the same gun I carry all day, and gives me the best chance at coming out ahead, should I need it? Makes no sense to me to do otherwise. If Im going to need it, Im going to need it, and Ill want the one that gives me the best shot at it.
Terry G
Member
I've said this time and again when as a Firearm Instructor or as a private citizen don't "just drop something in my pocket 'cause I'm only going to the store". Carry a gun every time as if your life depended on it.
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