2400 loads in between 38spl and 357mag

[hc18flyer]

Sorry, didn't realize your 13 was a .357 Mag. I was all wet! hc18flyer

 

[AJC1]

I am new to reloading and don't really understand what the chart is telling me. I am currently using v-N340 and loading according to the manufacturer load data off their website. From what I gather it is for upper midrange loads. It also has loads listed for both 38spl and 357mag. My Lyman 49th had loads for both 38&357mag with 2400. But it is more costly per pound and uses almost double the grains per load.

#9 would be the equivalent of n110 or full magnum power. I really like 14.2 grains under a 158 jsp to just put a hurt on something. On the contrary 8.4 Silhouette is a medium power mag load with extreme accuracy in the same 158. You said you want mid mag and that's
How I roll. 13.8 of 2400 is my game. 8.8 true blue is also extremely accurate in my testing.... you choose the powder ...

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Sorry, didn't realize your 13 was a .357 Mag. I was all wet! hc18flyer

Well, yes and no.

The Model 13 is based on Smith & Wesson's K-frame. Basically, it’s a .357 Magnum version of the heavy-barrel variant of the .38Spl. Model 10.

It’s smart to stick with midrange “duty loads” with the Model 13 - my opinion.

 

[Az Bob]

I don't think I would push a plated bullet that fast in a Model 13. I know they can take +P. If I am 'all wet', so be it? I have a 15-5 that I have taken up to 900 fps with a 150 grain lead swc. hc18flyer

Berry's copper plated bullets 158grn tough plate is rated to 1500fps. V-N340 powder manufacturers list 38spl starting @ 6grns for 948fps to 6.8 @1089fps. 357mag starting 7.1grn@1188 to 7.7 @1240. I was hoping to get something in between high 38 & low 357mag. Maybe I should stay with high 38 in the S&W 13 and the 357mag loadings in the Marlin m1894.

 

[AJC1]

Berry's copper plated bullets 158grn tough plate is rated to 1500fps. V-N340 powder manufacturers list 38spl starting @ 6grns for 948fps to 6.8 @1089fps. 357mag starting 7.1grn@1188 to 7.7 @1240. I was hoping to get something in between high 38 & low 357mag. Maybe I should stay with high 38 in the S&W 13 and the 357mag loadings in the Marlin m1894.

If you stay faster than blue dot you don't have a speed limit. The carbine will blow up your Barry's with real mag loads.

 

[Az Bob]

#9 would be the equivalent of n110 or full magnum power. I really like 14.2 grains under a 158 jsp to just put a hurt on something. On the contrary 8.4 Silhouette is a medium power mag load with extreme accuracy in the same 158. You said you want mid mag and that's
How I roll. 13.8 of 2400 is my game. 8.8 true blue is also extremely accurate in my testing.... you choose the powder ...

My main concern is to not shoot full 158grn 357mag l9ads in my K frame m13.

 

[AJC1]

My main concern is to not shoot full 158grn 357mag l9ads in my K frame m13.

The 8.8 grain true blue load is listed as a start load and is plenty.... give or take a tenth it's great. It's also a cheap and available powder that works wonderfully in a volumetric drop....

 

[Az Bob]

If you stay faster than blue dot you don't have a speed limit. The carbine will blow up your Barry's with real mag loads.

Yes that is part of my concern. I don't have a chronograph, so I am trying to go by manufacturer data. I believe that the published max 357mag load @ 1240 is too much for using that bullet in the carbine. The starting load is 7.1 grns @1088 for 158grn Berry's bullets fptp.

 

[Az Bob]

The 8.8 grain true blue load is listed as a start load and is plenty.... give or take a tenth it's great. It's also a cheap and available powder that works wonderfully in a volumetric drop....

I will have to look that one up. Powder are somewhat limited here in Yuma Az

 

[AJC1]

Yes that is part of my concern. I don't have a chronograph, so I am trying to go by manufacturer data. I believe that the published max 357mag load @ 1240 is too much for using that bullet in the carbine. The starting load is 7.1 grns @1088 for 158grn Berry's bullets fptp.

Your crimp is likely to do more damage than speed with n340. That's not a slow powder

 

[AJC1]

I will have to look that one up. Powder are somewhat limited here in Yuma Az

There is another member in your area with some blue dot he is willing to part with, keep mixing it up here and he will pop up... he was further east near tombstone

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Berry's copper plated bullets 158grn tough plate is rated to 1500fps. V-N340 powder manufacturers list 38spl starting @ 6grns for 948fps to 6.8 @1089fps. 357mag starting 7.1grn@1188 to 7.7 @1240. I was hoping to get something in between high 38 & low 357mag. Maybe I should stay with high 38 in the S&W 13 and the 357mag loadings in the Marlin m1894.

If you don’t already have one, now might be the time to invest in a chronograph. It doesn’t have to cost thousands of dollars to get a decent chronograph and it will tell you when you are in the velocity zone you want. The reloading tables provided by manufacturers are based on equipment no one ever shoots using different lots of powder, specific bullets and under laboratory conditions. They are incredibly useful but you will want to know what’s going on with your guns.

Anyway, the Model 13 is a really good sidearm, and very accurate for a fixed sight revolver. I think you have a good idea and realistic goal; but 2400 isn’t the right powder for the job.

Q: why change from N340? If it is working for you, stick with it? Just curious. (BTW, I have over a dozen different pistol powders, so I understand branching out)

 

[Az Bob]

If you don’t already have one, now might be the time to invest in a chronograph. It doesn’t have to cost thousands of dollars to get a decent chronograph and it will tell you when you are in the velocity zone you want. The reloading tables provided by manufacturers are based on equipment no one ever shoots using different lots of powder, specific bullets and under laboratory conditions. They are incredibly useful but you will want to know what’s going on with your guns.

Anyway, the Model 13 is a really good sidearm, and very accurate for a fixed sight revolver. I think you have a good idea and realistic goal; but 2400 isn’t the right powder for the job.

Q: why change from N340? If it is working for you, stick with it? Just curious. (BTW, I have over a dozen different pistol powders, so I understand branching out)

Actually I was look for something that runs about the same results but abit more cost effective. 2400 was one that crossed between 38 and 357 in my Lyman 49th edition. But after seeing the cost and it being geared to full mag power I decided to scrub that idea. I have some FP/XTP 158GRN that I am going to try in the Marlin m1894. More than likely going to stay with N340 for now. I believe that the upper end listed for that powder (8.6 @1365fps) for the Hornady XTP/HP should work out fine, maybe dial it back some.

 

[AJC1]

Actually I was look for something that runs about the same results but abit more cost effective. 2400 was one that crossed between 38 and 357 in my Lyman 49th edition. But after seeing the cost and it being geared to full mag power I decided to scrub that idea. I have some FP/XTP 158GRN that I am going to try in the Marlin m1894. More than likely going to stay with N340 for now. I believe that the upper end listed for that powder (8.6 @1365fps) for the Hornady XTP/HP should work out fine, maybe dial it back some.

If #9 is available in your area at a palatable price your carbine will put that xtp to work. That combination is not a match made in heaven for plated. I've pushed a 158 at Lymans 14.9 max and it's warm... 14.2 is plenty for me, including a 158 jsp. 14.7 got me 1750.

 

[dfish1247]

I’ve tried what you’re wanting to do in my 686. Same bullets and powder in 357 cases.

I don’t know how accurate you’re looking for, but 2400 didn’t start doing good with berrys 158gr fp until 12.4grs. By good, I mean constantly hitting a 12oz can at 25yds. And, until around 13gr, the loads were filthy as well. 2400 is dirty anyway, but this was gross.

If 2400 is all you have, try it, it will be nasty, but the m13 may take a liking, never know until you try. Just use 357 brass though. A certain somewhat famous person trashed a lot of 44 specials by overloading special brass.

All of my “frugal” loads for 357,41, and 44 are in that no man’s land between special and magnum. I use unique, aa5,win 231 and 244 for that.

 

[Az Bob]

I’ve tried what you’re wanting to do in my 686. Same bullets and powder in 357 cases.

I don’t know how accurate you’re looking for, but 2400 didn’t start doing good with berrys 158gr fp until 12.4grs. By good, I mean constantly hitting a 12oz can at 25yds. And, until around 13gr, the loads were filthy as well. 2400 is dirty anyway, but this was gross.

If 2400 is all you have, try it, it will be nasty, but the m13 may take a liking, never know until you try. Just use 357 brass though. A certain somewhat famous person trashed a lot of 44 specials by overloading special brass.

All of my “frugal” loads for 357,41, and 44 are in that no man’s land between special and magnum. I use unique, aa5,win 231 and 244 for that.

Actually 2400 was something that cross reference showing 38spl &357mag loads in my Lyman 49th edition. But it seems that it is better suited to full magnum loads.i think for now will stick with the V-N340 I been using. It is a faster burning powder and gives mid level loads.
And It burns clean.

 

[Walkalong]

Vihtavuori N330 65.2

65.2% fill ratio is higher than I would have guessed with N-330.

 

[Walkalong]

I am currently using v-N340

Which is very good stuff, but gives larger ES & SD numbers than BE-86 in midrange .357 Mag loads, more position sensitive.

 

[Az Bob]

Which is very good stuff, but gives larger ES & SD numbers than BE-86 in midrange .357 Mag loads, more position sensitive.

Funny thing I was just googling BE-86 right now

 

[P Flados]

I am new to reloading and don't really understand what the chart is telling me. I am currently using v-N340 and loading according to the manufacturer load data off their website. From what I gather it is for upper midrange loads. It also has loads listed for both 38spl and 357mag. My Lyman 49th had loads for both 38&357mag with 2400. But it is more costly per pound and uses almost double the grains per load.

You correctly noted that 2400 will cost a lot per round to get "mid range" performance. This powder is pretty good when loaded to near maximum published data, but I do not recommend it for reduced performance loads.

The first chart shows how many grains it takes to get a given velocity (approx. 1050 fps) in a 4" revolver. Going with a faster powder tends to get the job done with a smaller charge, but the chamber pressure tends to be higher. For the chart shown, I only included results with "mid range" pressures given the expected K frame usage.

Bullseye will get the job done with only 5.5 gr, but it is hard to find and tends to be costly if you can find it.

Several powders will get the job done with charges under 6.3 gr with AA#2 being among the best for cost & availability. Lets look at the AA#2 data. The AA#2 load of 6.1 gr is predicted to have a chamber pressure of 25,385 psi. An old Western edition 5.0 load pamphlet I have shows 4.3 gr of AA#2 for 38 Sp +P, and 7.0 gr for a plated bullet in a 357 Mag at 34,951 psi. So the 6.1 grs prediction looks to be consistent with the "mid range" description.

Just using Ammoseek, I found listings under $30 per pound. I know all about hazmat & shipping, but lets just use say $35 per pound (7000 gr) as a reference number. At 6.1 gr per round, you get 1147 rounds per pound and this comes out to $0.03 per round.

Lets go back to 2400 for comparison. Based on Ammoseek, I will put the reference price at $55 per pound. QL said 10.7 gr is needed for the same 1050 fps. Cost per round works out to $0.084. So you will spend more than twice as much on powder to get the same velocity.

Note also that the AA#2 has a predicted muzzle pressure of only 4300 psi where the 2400 is shown with 5981 psi. The AA#2 also gets 100% burn inside the barrel where the 2400 is at 72% burn. This indicates that the AA#2 will be less loud and have less blast. It will also have less recoil.

For my "mid range" 357 mag loads, I actually use a 120 gr powder coated bullet and either Promo or Titegroup. My "mid range" pressures are on the warm side. Probably between 26,000 and 28,000 psi. If you want to use a powder faster than AA-2, you can may be able to get a little lower cost per round, but you will either be at a higher pressure, or you will need to accept a lower velocity. The second chart I posted has info to look at if you want to think about using a faster powder but want to stay a good amount away from top end loads. The Clean Shot and TiteGroup loads look the most interesting in this category.

Note that the Win 244 mentioned above is economical and probably another good choice, but it is not in my Quickload. It seems to run real close to Universal for load data.

 

[Az Bob]

You correctly noted that 2400 will cost a lot per round to get "mid range" performance. This powder is pretty good when loaded to near maximum published data, but I do not recommend it for reduced performance loads.

The first chart shows how many grains it takes to get a given velocity (approx. 1050 fps) in a 4" revolver. Going with a faster powder tends to get the job done with a smaller charge, but the chamber pressure tends to be higher. For the chart shown, I only included results with "mid range" pressures given the expected K frame usage.

Bullseye will get the job done with only 5.5 gr, but it is hard to find and tends to be costly if you can find it.

Several powders will get the job done with charges under 6.3 gr with AA#2 being among the best for cost & availability. Lets look at the AA#2 data. The AA#2 load of 6.1 gr is predicted to have a chamber pressure of 25,385 psi. An old Western edition 5.0 load pamphlet I have shows 4.3 gr of AA#2 for 38 Sp +P, and 7.0 gr for a plated bullet in a 357 Mag at 34,951 psi. So the 6.1 grs prediction looks to be consistent with the "mid range" description.

Just using Ammoseek, I found listings under $30 per pound. I know all about hazmat & shipping, but lets just use say $35 per pound (7000 gr) as a reference number. At 6.1 gr per round, you get 1147 rounds per pound and this comes out to $0.03 per round.

Lets go back to 2400 for comparison. Based on Ammoseek, I will put to price at $55 per pound. QL said 10.7 gr is needed for the same 1050 fps. Cost per round works out to $0.084. So you will spend more than twice as much on powder to get the same velocity.

Note also that the AA#2 has a predicted muzzle pressure of only 4300 psi where the 2400 is shown with 5981 psi. The AA#2 also gets 100% burn inside the barrel where the 2400 is at 72% burn. This indicates that the AA#2 will be less loud and have less blast. It will also have less recoil.

For my "mid range" 357 mag loads, I actually use a 120 gr powder coated bullet and either Promo or Titegroup. My "mid range" pressures are on the warm side. Probably between 26,000 and 28,000 psi. If you want to use a powder faster than AA-2, you can may be able to get a little lower cost per round, but you will either be at a higher pressure, or you will need to accept a lower velocity. The second chart I posted has info to look at if you want to think about using a faster powder but want to stay a good amount away from top end loads. The Clean Shot and TiteGroup loads look the most interesting in this category.

I have decided that the 2400 idea is off the table. My LGS has it for $65 per pound. I saw your chart had N330 listed on there, I will go back to look it over. I am currently using N340 loaded

You correctly noted that 2400 will cost a lot per round to get "mid range" performance. This powder is pretty good when loaded to near maximum published data, but I do not recommend it for reduced performance loads.

The first chart shows how many grains it takes to get a given velocity (approx. 1050 fps) in a 4" revolver. Going with a faster powder tends to get the job done with a smaller charge, but the chamber pressure tends to be higher. For the chart shown, I only included results with "mid range" pressures given the expected K frame usage.

Bullseye will get the job done with only 5.5 gr, but it is hard to find and tends to be costly if you can find it.

Several powders will get the job done with charges under 6.3 gr with AA#2 being among the best for cost & availability. Lets look at the AA#2 data. The AA#2 load of 6.1 gr is predicted to have a chamber pressure of 25,385 psi. An old Western edition 5.0 load pamphlet I have shows 4.3 gr of AA#2 for 38 Sp +P, and 7.0 gr for a plated bullet in a 357 Mag at 34,951 psi. So the 6.1 grs prediction looks to be consistent with the "mid range" description.

Just using Ammoseek, I found listings under $30 per pound. I know all about hazmat & shipping, but lets just use say $35 per pound (7000 gr) as a reference number. At 6.1 gr per round, you get 1147 rounds per pound and this comes out to $0.03 per round.

Lets go back to 2400 for comparison. Based on Ammoseek, I will put to price at $55 per pound. QL said 10.7 gr is needed for the same 1050 fps. Cost per round works out to $0.084. So you will spend more than twice as much on powder to get the same velocity.

Note also that the AA#2 has a predicted muzzle pressure of only 4300 psi where the 2400 is shown with 5981 psi. The AA#2 also gets 100% burn inside the barrel where the 2400 is at 72% burn. This indicates that the AA#2 will be less loud and have less blast. It will also have less recoil.

For my "mid range" 357 mag loads, I actually use a 120 gr powder coated bullet and either Promo or Titegroup. My "mid range" pressures are on the warm side. Probably between 26,000 and 28,000 psi. If you want to use a powder faster than AA-2, you can may be able to get a little lower cost per round, but you will either be at a higher pressure, or you will need to accept a lower velocity. The second chart I posted has info to look at if you want to think about using a faster powder but want to stay a good amount away from top end loads. The Clean Shot and TiteGroup loads look the most interesting in this category.

You correctly noted that 2400 will cost a lot per round to get "mid range" performance. This powder is pretty good when loaded to near maximum published data, but I do not recommend it for reduced performance loads.

The first chart shows how many grains it takes to get a given velocity (approx. 1050 fps) in a 4" revolver. Going with a faster powder tends to get the job done with a smaller charge, but the chamber pressure tends to be higher. For the chart shown, I only included results with "mid range" pressures given the expected K frame usage.

Bullseye will get the job done with only 5.5 gr, but it is hard to find and tends to be costly if you can find it.

Several powders will get the job done with charges under 6.3 gr with AA#2 being among the best for cost & availability. Lets look at the AA#2 data. The AA#2 load of 6.1 gr is predicted to have a chamber pressure of 25,385 psi. An old Western edition 5.0 load pamphlet I have shows 4.3 gr of AA#2 for 38 Sp +P, and 7.0 gr for a plated bullet in a 357 Mag at 34,951 psi. So the 6.1 grs prediction looks to be consistent with the "mid range" description.

Just using Ammoseek, I found listings under $30 per pound. I know all about hazmat & shipping, but lets just use say $35 per pound (7000 gr) as a reference number. At 6.1 gr per round, you get 1147 rounds per pound and this comes out to $0.03 per round.

Lets go back to 2400 for comparison. Based on Ammoseek, I will put to price at $55 per pound. QL said 10.7 gr is needed for the same 1050 fps. Cost per round works out to $0.084. So you will spend more than twice as much on powder to get the same velocity.

Note also that the AA#2 has a predicted muzzle pressure of only 4300 psi where the 2400 is shown with 5981 psi. The AA#2 also gets 100% burn inside the barrel where the 2400 is at 72% burn. This indicates that the AA#2 will be less loud and have less blast. It will also have less recoil.

For my "mid range" 357 mag loads, I actually use a 120 gr powder coated bullet and either Promo or Titegroup. My "mid range" pressures are on the warm side. Probably between 26,000 and 28,000 psi. If you want to use a powder faster than AA-2, you can may be able to get a little lower cost per round, but you will either be at a higher pressure, or you will need to accept a lower velocity. The second chart I posted has info to look at if you want to think about using a faster powder but want to stay a good amount away from top end loads. The Clean Shot and TiteGroup loads look the most interesting in this category.

You correctly noted that 2400 will cost a lot per round to get "mid range" performance. This powder is pretty good when loaded to near maximum published data, but I do not recommend it for reduced performance loads.

The first chart shows how many grains it takes to get a given velocity (approx. 1050 fps) in a 4" revolver. Going with a faster powder tends to get the job done with a smaller charge, but the chamber pressure tends to be higher. For the chart shown, I only included results with "mid range" pressures given the expected K frame usage.

Bullseye will get the job done with only 5.5 gr, but it is hard to find and tends to be costly if you can find it.

Several powders will get the job done with charges under 6.3 gr with AA#2 being among the best for cost & availability. Lets look at the AA#2 data. The AA#2 load of 6.1 gr is predicted to have a chamber pressure of 25,385 psi. An old Western edition 5.0 load pamphlet I have shows 4.3 gr of AA#2 for 38 Sp +P, and 7.0 gr for a plated bullet in a 357 Mag at 34,951 psi. So the 6.1 grs prediction looks to be consistent with the "mid range" description.

Just using Ammoseek, I found listings under $30 per pound. I know all about hazmat & shipping, but lets just use say $35 per pound (7000 gr) as a reference number. At 6.1 gr per round, you get 1147 rounds per pound and this comes out to $0.03 per round.

Lets go back to 2400 for comparison. Based on Ammoseek, I will put to price at $55 per pound. QL said 10.7 gr is needed for the same 1050 fps. Cost per round works out to $0.084. So you will spend more than twice as much on powder to get the same velocity.

Note also that the AA#2 has a predicted muzzle pressure of only 4300 psi where the 2400 is shown with 5981 psi. The AA#2 also gets 100% burn inside the barrel where the 2400 is at 72% burn. This indicates that the AA#2 will be less loud and have less blast. It will also have less recoil.

For my "mid range" 357 mag loads, I actually use a 120 gr powder coated bullet and either Promo or Titegroup. My "mid range" pressures are on the warm side. Probably between 26,000 and 28,000 psi. If you want to use a powder faster than AA-2, you can may be able to get a little lower cost per round, but you will either be at a higher pressure, or you will need to accept a lower velocity. The second chart I posted has info to look at if you want to think about using a faster powder but want to stay a good amount away from top end loads. The Clean Shot and TiteGroup loads look the most interesting in this category.

 

[Az Bob]

pound

I am using N340 loaded @ 6.9grns. That is in-between the max 38spl load of 6.8 grns & the starting load of 7.1 for 357mag using Berry's bullets 158grn FP/TP which Berry's bullets rates at 1500fps

 

[Palladan44]

OP- What you're trying to do has been done by many of us. Myself included.

These days, I try to load in 357 mag brass for these medium magnum loads using Power Pistol (@Walkalong mentioned BE-86 which is very similar to PP) Others like Unique. These are all great for getting a 158gr up to the velocity you propose.

To stay in that same velocity envelope, however, with 2400, I do believe using 38 Brass would be beneficial. The Slower burning magnum pistol powders like to have a good case fill- IMO And in 357 Mag brass dropping that light 10-11gr charge of would result in more erratic velocities than if loaded tighter in the 38 Special Brass. Just be sure to mark the boxes, don't want someone to wind up shooting them out of a "Chiefs Special" someday.

 

[Az Bob]

OP- What you're trying to do has been done by many of us. Myself included.

These days, I try to load in 357 mag brass for these medium magnum loads using Power Pistol (@Walkalong mentioned BE-86 which is very similar to PP) Others like Unique. These are all great for getting a 158gr up to the velocity you propose.

To stay in that same velocity envelope, however, with 2400, I do believe using 38 Brass would be beneficial. The Slower burning magnum pistol powders like to have a good case fill- IMO And in 357 Mag brass dropping that light 10-11gr charge of would result in more erratic velocities than if loaded tighter in the 38 Special Brass. Just be sure to mark the boxes, don't want someone to wind up shooting them out of a "Chiefs Special" someday.

Thanks for your response, but I have come to realize that 2400 was a misguided thought. Someone here had mentioned BE-86 just as I looking it up. I am just about done using my 2nd pound of N340 and was thinking about trying something different.

 

[jmorris]

Berry‘s are plinking grade bullets, that only get worse the harder you push them. I like them much better with smaller charges of fast powders than large charges of slow powders. Not to mention a 5.0 grain charge of W231 will give you twice as many rounds per pound of powder than a 10.0 grain charge of anything else.