25 yards - 28 shots - 1 hit...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Some of the top competitive shooters in this state are LE. But they also happen to be gun nuts who just happen to be cops. Of course they take advantage of every bit of free ammo that they get.

Ask them their opinion on most of their fellow officer's shooting skills and it is usually assesed as very poor.
 
I've considered several times going into public service as an officer. I know I'd be above average in many regards and I might still do this. Especially if I get laid off from my current job.

Having poor marksmanship in a role where you may be forced to use a firearm screames, to me at least, a lack of respect for the tool. Guns are DANGEROUS tools and need to be carefully controlled.

For crying out loud the criminals are going for regular organized training and practice and the beat cops aren't? Spray and Pray shouldn't be method of choice for anyone, least of all a police officer. SWAT can't always be there and if the officers can't protect themselves, how are they going to protect the public?

I have friends who are officers and ex-officers. They all have a healthy respect and ability with firearms. I guess I'm lucky here.
 
Throwing money at a problem (i.e. boosting the budget) won't fix necessarily fix a problem. Here, we have little to no desire on the part of deputies to train with their most critical piece of equipment. Giving them extra money won't correct the area of deficiency, namely the piece of muscle between their ears that's telling them "I don't need to practice shooting. I already know how to pull a trigger."

Shooting a firearm is an easy task; hitting the right target is not.
 
Tamara

I make squat dollars and nine cents an hour, yet I find the time and money to shoot the gun I carry at work considerably more often than "once a month." Call me crazy, but I consider the fact that I carry a pistol in public to demand a certain level of proficiency and ability, and I think the onus is on me to provide it.
Click to expand...
Kudos. I can respect that very much.

Keith

Why do that? Just set a very high standard. If a cop can't make the cut, fire him/her. Maybe the force could buy bulk ammo and sell it at cost, but beyond that I wouldn't do a thing beyond testing their proficiency.
Click to expand...
If the employer does not provide the training they can not terminate over performance, period. They do provide training, but the question is, "Why not more"?

Lawdog

Why? My current department budgets nothing, zero, zip, nada, no rangetime, no ammunition, absolutely squat, towards officer range practice other than the requirement to qualify once a year.
Click to expand...

Sounds like the average run of the mill dept. Good for you and your guys, great dedication. Some places don't have the ability/money. A few of the guys I know can not shoot legally unless they drive 24 miles one way through the backwoods and pay $75 per year for that. There is no closer legal range. Indoor ranges have gotten cost prohibitive and the 2 that were in the area were shut down years ago. Quite a few of the agencies nearby are on the low end of the wage scale compaired to other sectors. One guy has his wife work part time at the local grocery store to get family health coverage for their family. I don't see them going out for sodas and pop corn, much less being able to afford range time/supplies. There was a local cop (retired) who put on a few free seminars on how to create a shooting program, documented, to write off on taxes. This has helped, but too many have a hard time scrapping $ together. One suggesion was to group together and buy one .22 LR conversion kit or a .22 LR pistol. It's a start.
As for me, time is the biggest problem I face. I work 2 jobs and extra when I can. It's getting tougher and tougher to get to the range. I miss my old local where the range was 5 min away.
 
Wow TheeBadOne that's rough. Very low population area, low income per capita, or just not enough money sent the PDs way?
Click to expand...
Really a bit of all 3. Most of the cops would just be happy if there was some place accessible to them to shoot other than having to drive 1+ hrs one way. I'm one of the lucky ones, only 30 minutes one way in good weather.
 
A few of the guys I know can not shoot legally unless they drive 24 miles one way through the backwoods and pay $75 per year for that. There is no closer legal range.
Click to expand...

:confused: If you're out in the middle of nowhere isn't there a city/county owned hillside/gravel pit/something where you could set up a rough range? It doesn't need to be fancy or open to everyone especially if the only ones worried about the legal use are the ones using it in the first place.
 
If the employer does not provide the training they can not terminate over performance, period.
Click to expand...

Why? They would terminate if the employee falls below any other standard.
If a cop loses his license due to poor driving skills, they'd terminate him. They'd terminate him if he put on weight and couldn't meet those requirements. They'd terminate him if he couldn't master a new computer system to fill out paperwork.

Just set a standard and tell the employee they must meet that standard. 99.9% of them will suddenly find the interest and ambition they need to master those skills. The .9% who won't or can't are best served by finding another type of employment.

Keith
 
If you're out in the middle of nowhere isn't there a city/county owned hillside/gravel pit/something where you could set up a rough range? It doesn't need to be fancy or open to everyone especially if the only ones worried about the legal use are the ones using it in the first place.
Click to expand...
Greg, that is an excellent question, and unfortunately the answer is no. :( This day and age "Liability" has become a word that is larger than life. Where I grew up shooting in the city/county/private gravel pit was not a big deal. Now they are all marked "No Trespassing", and if you contact the property owner they ususally don't allow shooting targets. It's not that they are anti-gun, but they are worried about getting sued. :banghead:
 
Now they are all marked "No Trespassing", and if you contact the property owner they ususally don't allow shooting targets.
Click to expand...

I can understand a private property owners concern, but that is why I specified city/county owned. If it is one of their employees doing the shooting the liability should be reduced greatly if not eliminated. It just seems strange the the city/county doesn't have a place for their officers to train (not that I'm doubting your story, you obviously know your local situation much better than me). Even a one lane concrete block range with a big piece of steel plate in the back parking lot couldn't be that expensive to build.

Greg
 
Greg

Here's how bad things are now-a-days. One of the largest agency in the area's new outdoor firing range was pushed through with the promise that it would be available to all LEO agencies in the area. Funding was provided by multiple sources. No LEO from an outside agency has ever set foot and fired there. Why? Well, now that it's build the "liability" factor has that agencies bean counters (not the cops) worried, so it can only be used when there is an authrorized "Range Master" (not what you think, only one of that dept's rangemasters, at time and a half billed 3 hr minimum). Now with the fear of "lead contamination" the county is reluctant to let any of its pits be used for fear of "EPA" violations/clean up costs.... :banghead:
 
Sounds like the average run of the mill dept. Good for you and your guys, great dedication. Some places don't have the ability/money. A few of the guys I know can not shoot legally unless they drive 24 miles one way through the backwoods and pay $75 per year for that.
Click to expand...
Awww, the poor guys. ... :rolleyes:

I drive further than that to get to the grocery store. And I'm willing to bet that every single one of them earns more than the salary my husband and I are successfully raising five children with. Yet I've managed to learn to shoot pretty well, budget or no budget, because it is my responsibility as someone who carries a gun in public that I know how to use it.

Look, TheeBadOne, can't you just admit that this was piss-poor shooting on the part of the officers involved? Just once, could you admit that a fellow officer may not have been doing the Very Best Thing? Might even have been (*gasp!*) wrong??

It's even more silly to claim that officers are never wrong than it is to claim they are always wrong. And it's as annoying as anything I can think of, too.

Tamara has her finger on the pulse of the gun scene in that town -- if those officers haven't been spotted in the gun stores buying ammunition, nor encountered at the range burning ammunition, just maybe their piss-poor performance might be due to lack of practice. And the lack of practice would be, ultimately, a lack of personal responsibility.

You want to claim that if they can't hit the broad side of a barn, it is the fault of the department. But these people who have chosen to carry a gun in public have a personal responsibility to know how to use that weapon, in addition to whatever professional responsibility they might have.

If the department isn't meeting the professional needs of these guys, each and every one of them still has a personal responsibility to know how to shoot well. And it's a crying shame that anyone, LEO or not, would try to excuse them from exercising it.

pax

We are responsible for actions performed in response to circumstances for which we are not responsible. -- Allan Massie
 
K-town ranges:
ORSA. Private range in Oak Ridge. $100/yr for maybe the best range facility in the Southeast.
Guncraft Sports. Indoor range in the 'burbs. $8 or $9/hr last I checked.
John Sevier range on Rifle Range Road. $4 for 2/hrs, or as long as you want if it ain't crowded.
Outside city limits. Blaze away if you're on private property.

.40 cal ammo. ~$9.00/50 at any gun shop in town, cheaper at Wally World.

The way I see it, these guys could've gotten in at least a hundred rounds of trigger time a month for less than the cost of a 12-pack or two. That seems to be the way every single Knox Co. deputy I've spoken with sees it, too.
 
pax

Please re-read my posts (not read into them). Nowhere did I state "It's not the cops fault". All I did was take issue with posts who spoke from on top a high peak down. The shooting was "piss poor", without a doubt. My posting in this thread is not so much about this one particular incident, but those who shoot a 245.06 on the line and automatically think/post they would have done the same in a real world situation. Training increases performance, no doubt, but when the SHTF in the real world the targets aren't paper, they don't just sit there and often they shoot back. This thread degenerated into a generalized "all cops..." right off the bat.
1st reply to this thread:

LOL Yep, are hard earned tax dollars are spent well huh? :barf:
Click to expand...
Then each end every one of those spineless dirt bags, needs to turn in their badge/gun and find a job where the all they need to worry about is if you want fries with the burger.
Click to expand...
Typical for LE, IMO.
Click to expand...

No personal attacks on my part, just trying to advance the topic. Nothing is as simple as black and white.
Tamara has her finger on the pulse of the gun scene in that town -- if those officers haven't been spotted in the gun stores buying ammunition, nor encountered at the range burning ammunition, just maybe their piss-poor performance might be due to lack of practice.
Click to expand...
Maybe she does. Maybe she's right, but this is still speculation at best (for mulitple reasons) but this is from her own post.
Not one of these deputies' names (meaning she doesn't know them, thus could see them and not know they are cops) rings a bell.
Click to expand...
I suspect she does not know every LEO by name/face in the area.
What I objected to was the broad brush being once again used to paint with. There are gun owners who are slobs, criminals, dangerous and an outright threat to society, yet you won’t see me break out the broad brush and start slapping paint on.
Please re-read my posts. Perhaps you'll get the direction I was aiming for. (and in case you missed it or forgot reading it in the begining of this reply, the shooting was piss poor).

All the best
 
That broad brush has been used in my hearing (and reading) by people who are well qualified to use it, and who are LEOs themselves.
I'm talking about nationally recognized trainers who see cops shoot a whole lot more than any of us do.

It goes like this: Cops, in general, are lousy shooters with only about 10% or so who care about shooting well. The rest are satisfied if they qualify at bare minimum for their department.

That's a bad situation. It's one I'd like to see fixed, and I'm sure most of us feel the same.

It's not helped by blindly defending cops, which is what you do, as pax pointed out. No matter WHAT criticism is leveled at any police action, you are there to tell us to shut up.

You aren't helping the image of law enforcement, and you aren't helping your brother cops.

Your attitude is part of the problem.


"Faithful are the wounds of a friend."
 
Quartus

It's not helped by blindly defending cops, which is what you do, as pax pointed out. No matter WHAT criticism is leveled at any police action, you are there to tell us to shut up.
Click to expand...
I have never told anyone to 'shut up'. Please don't put harsh words in my mouth in an attempt to undermine my posts. I don't "defend" cops in the posts you refer to, but attack the aguements sometimes made, and in particular some comments made.
You aren't helping the image of law enforcement, and you aren't helping your brother cops.
Click to expand...
Funny, but I don't see how blindly bashing LEO's is helping them.... (reply not in reference to this specific thread)

All the best
 
I'll bash THESE cops...

or at least the admin schmuck who sets their firearms proficiency standards. I guess nobody ever stood behind them and yelled "WATCH YOUR FRONT SIGHT!!!" on the firing line.... and they evidently think that it's on there for decorative purposes.

You don't know how it irks me to see stuff like this. I spent years fighting a sheriff-poitician who lacked the kahonas to require meaninful standards from his political-appointee deputies, some of who were downright dangerous as hell with a weapon in their hands. This is what happens when the standards get lowered far enough, and an event occurs that lines up the loose ends all in one place. If the suicide-guy hadn't had the decency to align himself with a treeline (instead of say, the apartment complex?), can you imagine the casualties?


I'll point out one more little thing, and then I'll shut up for awhile- this is also a predictable result of the "spray and pray at 10 yards" training doctrine that set in shortly after most LE agencies went to hi-cap autos. Now, don't get me wrong- a good shot is a good shot, no matter what they're packing- but I've seen this developing for years, and the people who allowed it to happen will be the first ones to act surprised when it does.

Inept shooting is inept shooting, no matter who's pulling the trigger. This crowd don't deserve any slack.
 
I suppose they mean indirect lighting from nearby street lights and the headlights of the police cars.

Indirect lighting?
Sounds more like indirect fire.:D
 
Sry, I havent read all the posts.. I just scanned them.

After reading that article it reminded me of what I saw last week. I was working as a contractor for a local town at their waste treatment plant. It happens that the LE gun range is on the plant property and 3 local towns were meeting there to do their annual pistol, shotgun, and rifle quals.

My men and I watched some of the officers shoot their "combat course". It was one of the saddest things I have ever seen. Muzzle control.. there was none. As for hitting the targets.. At one point an officer was down shooting around a box that simulated cover. 7yds down range was a plate rack with (6) 8 inch plates on it. He shot all of his rounds (thats three magazines folks) and hadnt taken but two down. Other officers threw him two more full magazines and he proceded to empty them as well. He only got 4 plates down out of all those rounds at 7 yds. He was slow firing too. One of the men that works for me (knowing that I regularly shoot IDPA) actually ask an officer if they would let me shoot the course to show them how it was supposed to be done. I wish he hadnt done that. However, some embarassment perhaps would have made them pay attention. The course used 9 shots minimum to complete the course and the fastest time we saw was 1min 20 seconds. I was at a complete loss for words as I stood there watching this mess. I have shot with some great shooters that were LEOs and some that were lacking, but I have never before seen any LEOs sink to this level.

We had to leave and later I returned to move some equipment and watched the shotgun quals... some of them couldnt even load the shotgun. One guy actually loaded the thing but didnt chamber a round and tried to fire. BIG FLINCH and a click... then he double pumped the 870 and one buckshot round was ofcourse ejected and flew down a bank behind him. Now with a live round in the chamber, his finger on the trigger, he swept his fellow officers with the muzzle of the shotgun as he looked down the bank for his lost round. I held my breath and was praying he wouldnt milk that trigger. When they started to go for the rifle portion of the course, I had to leave.

I respect all of you LEOs who take your duty and your firearm proficiency seriously, but for those of you who only put rounds through your weapon when made to by your dept... you just plain sicken me. Its your duty to be able to use that firearm if needed. ITS YOUR JOB! Make it happen.
 
Ahhhhh...

I get it.

TheeBadOne is not defending the officers or saying that they did everything right.

He's just going to take exception to any negative comments about the officers.

What he's basically getting at is that even though cops aren't always right, if you say anything bad about one you are wrong to do so.

Put another way...

Even though he acknowledges that the cops might have done poorly TheeBadOne is still going argue with anyone who says so.
 
Good for you and your agency, Lawdog!
Click to expand...

*sigh*

I wish. The sheriff and his top brass are very vocal and extremely proud that: "I never ever had to even draw my gun when I was a steet deputy. Harumph, harumph."

The attitude that a sidearm is, at best, only a badge of office, and an inconvenient one at that, has trickled insidiously down the chain-of-command.

Pretty soon you wind up with officers holding the opinion that because nobody else has ever had to shoot anybody, they won't ever have to either.

That, coupled with the opinion vocalized by some senior brass that anyone who actually practices shooting people has a subconscious desire to find someone to shoot, gives me the firm belief that if TCLEOSE didn't mandate a once-a-year qualification most of the older officers wouldn't ever touch their pistols.

:(LawDog
 
From an old thread on TFL:


"BASHING"

It is a word that is used by the intellectually and morally bankrupt to quell legitimate disagreement and criticism.

It is a petty whining, "Don't be mean to me!" clothed in self righteousness.

It is the antithesis of intelligent discussion, and a threat to freedom of thought and speech, and therefore, truth.

It is an ad hominem disguised as "tolerance", and has no place in a free society.
Click to expand...


TBO, it appears from your many posts that ALL criticism of LEOs or their actions is "bashing" in your book. By constantly defending the indefensible, you perpetuate the idea that cops will protect their own no matter how wrong they may be. True, this is a stereotype, and not true of all cops, but it is certainly true of many. THIS one behaviour is a large part of why so many law abiding citizens today do not trust cops. And by your example, you do more harm to the image of law enforcement than all the cop haters put together. THEY can't make cops look bad - only cops can do that.

Oh, I haven't walked in their shoes? Here's a news flash for you: I don't have to be a major league pictcher to be able to see when a pitcher has gotten too tired to continue in the game. I don't have to be a professional quarterback to see when a man's not making any passes. I don't have to have been a cop to know when they are doing something grossly wrong. Whether or not I would personally have done better is irrelevant - most coaches can't play as well as their star players, but it's still their job to point out where the player can do better. It's MY job as a citizen to do the same - to keep government in check, and that certainly includes its agents, be they post office employees or SWAT team members. That is foundational to our free society. If we give LEOs a pass on bad behaviour, we contribute to this country degnerating into a police state.

I know perfectly well that you don't SAY that LEOs are above criticism, any more than you actually use the words "shut up" to those who criticize.

But you certainly convey that message.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top