.260 or 6.5x55?

[DM~]

I'd choose the rifle you want first, then worry about the caliber. There's not enough difference between 243/260/6.5 creedmoor/6.5x55/7mm-08/7x57 to justify choosing one over the other IMO.

You are kidding right?? Do you REALLY think there's very little difference between a .243 and something like a .260 or 7-08 on "big" game? You must not have used all of those cartridges on big game or you certainly would have seen a distinct difference....

Are you sure you aren't comparing them by shooting rabbits with them? lol

DM

 

[justin22885]

The problem with the 260 Remington shooting the long match grade bullets like the 140 grain Berger VLD - Hornady A-Max - Sierra Matchking,etc.,you are handicapped with most short action magazine OAL limits.
I shoot a DPMS LR-260H,and I'm limited with a COAL of 2.810" because of the magazines,I have to seat the 140 gr match bullets around .100" or more off the lands to shoot them out of this rifle. It's like that with most short action - bolt action rifles.

The 6.5 Creedmoor solved that problem with a shorter case with a better shoulder angle for a better powder burn.

It's easy to see the differences in how seating depth effects these cartridges. The 6.5 CM on the left is loaded at .010" off the lands,and the 260 Remington on the right is loaded at magazine length.



I'll probably change out my heavy barreled 25-06 with a 260 Remington barrel when I shoot it out. Then I'll be able to seat the bullets out near the lands,and still be able to use the magazine in the rifle.
Using a Long action instead of a Short action only adds about 4-5 ounces of weight to an entire rifle,if you can't handle that,start working out.

its not a better shoulder angle, its a different one, while they may do it to maximize case capacity after shortening the case to make way for longer bullets, in doing so they also made it less reliable in feeding.. in bolt actions you'll probably never see a difference but if you got into automatics with a higher volume of fire or dirtier conditions the longer taper on a shoulder will aid in feeding.. what little gains doing this makes in case capacity though will have little to no noticeable effect on muzzle energy

 

[R.W.Dale]

I will double down on Corn pickers statement

Using a modern bullet there is virtually no difference in killing power between .473" head cartridges for deer sized game.

If elk or meaner critters are on the menu I would suspect this discussion would be about larger bore offerings.

For hunting there's not been a cartridge introduced since the advent of the 7x57 or especially 30/06 that brings any new capabilities to the table.

 

[Jim Watson]

Target rifle -- .260 with Lapua brass.
Hunting -- 6.5 Swede... or a .256 Newton.

 

[Paul7]

I will double down on Corn pickers statement

Using a modern bullet there is virtually no difference in killing power between .473" head cartridges for deer sized game.

If elk or meaner critters are on the menu I would suspect this discussion would be about larger bore offerings.

For hunting there's not been a cartridge introduced since the advent of the 7x57 or especially 30/06 that brings any new capabilities to the table.

That is a profound, and true statement. Most of the rest is marketing.

 

[Dr T]

While I agree with the "modern bullet" observation of the previous two posts, much of my hunting was done before the advent of the "modern bullet" (in the 60's, 70's, and 80's).

I had enough jacket separations in 6 mm bullets (Remington) to want to use anything lighter (like a 22-250 with a .473" head) on deer. I understand that the 60 gr purpose built bullets should be able to do a very nice job, but this is one of those "emotion triumphs over logic" sorts of things.

But we digress.

I have a 6.5 CM.

I also have a 6.5 Swede barrel for my T/C Encore. It is a match grade barrel that I have not yet gotten around to ringing out.

My previous 6.5 Swede was a Model 96 Mauser that would shoot at about 1 MOA (despite having been butchered in sporterization by an importer).

The reason I have the Swede in my collection is that it is an immensely important cartridge that had quirks that influenced the development of a number of later cartridges. While it is inefficient by modern standards, its performance has still stood the test of time. Given the same bullet and bullet placement, I seriously doubt that a deer, moose, or elk could tell the difference in whether the shot was fired from a 6.5 Swede, 6.5 CM, or 260 Rem. It might be able to tell the difference between one of these an a 308 or 30-06 with a bullet of the same sectional density.

However, DEAD is DEAD.

 

[DM~]

I will double down on Corn pickers statement

Using a modern bullet there is virtually no difference in killing power between .473" head cartridges for deer sized game, If elk or meaner critters are on the menu I would suspect this discussion would be about larger bore offerings.

For hunting there's not been a cartridge introduced since the advent of the 7x57 or especially 30/06 that brings any new capabilities to the table.

Actually, you are NOT doubling down! You adding "deer sized game", that corn picker did not say....

Actually, after shooting a fair amount of big game with a .243, I don't agree with you either... UNLESS you are talking about side heart/lung shots only...

6.5 on up give MUCH better penetration for raking shots and that's why I can't include the .243... Not everyone get's those perfect shots, so why use a cartridge that limits you to them ?, when other/better options are so easy to get.

DM

 

[R.W.Dale]

I happen to believe a bad shot is a bad shot that more gun does not allow you a margin to get soppy.

If you want to invoke the "limits" mantra then why stop at 6.5 go even bigger all the way to 35 Whelen to really drive those "Texas heart shots" home

 

[Corn-Picker]

You are kidding right?? Do you REALLY think there's very little difference between a .243 and something like a .260 or 7-08 on "big" game? You must not have used all of those cartridges on big game or you certainly would have seen a distinct difference....

Are you sure you aren't comparing them by shooting rabbits with them? lol

DM

People are way too caliber obsessed in my opinion. If you like the CZ550 FS then get a 6.5x55 or a 7x57. If you like the Weatherby Vanguard S2 then get the 6.5 Creedmoor. If you like the x-bolt Micro Midas then choose between the 243 and 7mm-08, because it's not offered in a 6.5 variety. In a case like the OP's, choosing a caliber before the rifle makes zero sense to me. Find what rifle fits you and turns you on, and then worry about caliber.

Is there a difference between the calibers I listed? Sure, about 10-30% in terms of energy and cross-sectional area. If a 6.5 isn't available in your favorite rifle, and the 6.5 caliber is marginal for the game/conditions/range you hunt, then move up. If a 6.5 caliber isn't marginal for the game/conditions/range you hunt, then consider moving down. Don't make life tougher than it is.

As far as personal experience, I haven't noticed a difference in killing power between 223 through 30-06 as long as I use them within their limits (say 100 yards for the 223 on whitetail deer). I've shot multiple deer within 100 yards using both calibers (along with many other calibers in between), and it seems to work out the same every time; if I hit the shoulder they drop on the spot, if I hit the lungs they run 50-100 yards and then die. I wouldn't use the 223 on elk or try to shoot a deer at 200 yards, but within its range it seems to have the same killing power as everything else (I do plan to buy a 375 Ruger eventually, which will allow me to gather some data at a higher energy range). The data seem to support this, researchers found no significant difference in killing success or distance traveled as a function of caliber (all ranges were reasonable for the calibers used).

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/articlegad.html

I'm not liimited on the type of shots I can take with the 223 either, just the range. The last deer I shot with a Barnes TSX, as it was quartering towards me, the bullet took out one lung, clipped the liver, and went far enough to bust the stomach open. I guess it I was using my 06 I could have continued into the intestines and maybe exited through the ham

 

[DM~]

I happen to believe a bad shot is a bad shot that more gun does not allow you a margin to get soppy.

If you want to invoke the "limits" mantra then why stop at 6.5 go even bigger all the way to 35 Whelen to really drive those "Texas heart shots" home

A bad shot IS a bad shot, but I wasn't talking about "bad or sloppy" shots in my post above.

Then again, I don't consider a quartering away shot to be a "bad" or sloppy shot... Taking those shots cleanly, has kept me fed when I REALLY needed the meat.

DM

 

[justin22885]

People are way too caliber obsessed in my opinion. If you like the CZ550 FS then get a 6.5x55 or a 7x57. If you like the Weatherby Vanguard S2 then get the 6.5 Creedmoor. If you like the x-bolt Micro Midas then choose between the 243 and 7mm-08, because it's not offered in a 6.5 variety. In a case like the OP's, choosing a caliber before the rifle makes zero sense to me. Find what rifle fits you and turns you on, and then worry about caliber.

Is there a difference between the calibers I listed? Sure, about 10-30% in terms of energy and cross-sectional area. If a 6.5 isn't available in your favorite rifle, and the 6.5 caliber is marginal for the game/conditions/range you hunt, then move up. If a 6.5 caliber isn't marginal for the game/conditions/range you hunt, then consider moving down. Don't make life tougher than it is.

As far as personal experience, I haven't noticed a difference in killing power between 223 through 30-06 as long as I use them within their limits (say 100 yards for the 223 on whitetail deer). I've shot multiple deer within 100 yards using both calibers (along with many other calibers in between), and it seems to work out the same every time; if I hit the shoulder they drop on the spot, if I hit the lungs they run 50-100 yards and then die. I wouldn't use the 223 on elk or try to shoot a deer at 200 yards, but within its range it seems to have the same killing power as everything else (I do plan to buy a 375 Ruger eventually, which will allow me to gather some data at a higher energy range). The data seem to support this, researchers found no significant difference in killing success or distance traveled as a function of caliber (all ranges were reasonable for the calibers used).

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/articlegad.html

I'm not liimited on the type of shots I can take with the 223 either, just the range. The last deer I shot with a Barnes TSX, as it was quartering towards me, the bullet took out one lung, clipped the liver, and went far enough to bust the stomach open. I guess it I was using my 06 I could have continued into the intestines and maybe exited through the ham

maybe some people dont want rifles chambered in a dozen or so different calibers that do little more than overlap one another.. and other people may actually like to practice with their rifles which require the purchase of more ammunition, which is going to favor those calibers cheaper to handload..

there are many reasons to want a specific caliber, good reasons too.. i only care to have at most 4-5 different calibers in what i own that i actually intend to shoot and im trying to get that down to 2-3, so if someone wants a specific caliber, then i have no issues with their decision

 

[DM~]

People are way too caliber obsessed in my opinion.

I do agree...

Is there a difference between the calibers I listed? Sure, about 10-30% in terms of energy and cross-sectional area.

First of all, 30% is quite a bit! I bet if your boss wanted to cut your wages 30% you would quit your job! lol BUT, IF you would have shot enough varied game animals, you would see the difference between the 22/6mm's and the 7mm/30's... There IS a real difference and I've shot enough big white tails to see it.

As far as personal experience, I haven't noticed a difference in killing power between 223 through 30-06 as long as I use them within their limits (say 100 yards for the 223 on whitetail deer).

NOW you are putting "range" and "animal size" limits on, and that's the ONLY way you will get those two cartridges to perform anywhere near close together. I say, why choose marginal when something like a 260 or a bit bigger really does do a better job...

I'm not liimited on the type of shots I can take with the 223 either, just the range. The last deer I shot with a Barnes TSX, as it was quartering towards me, the bullet took out one lung, clipped the liver, and went far enough to bust the stomach open. I guess it I was using my 06 I could have continued into the intestines and maybe exited through the ham

That was quartered "toward" you... If it was quartered away, then you DO need to reach the boiler room, and on top of that, I want the bullet to leave a blood trail, 99.9% of the time, that only happens when the bullet exits. ALSO, something a bit bigger than 6mm, if it exits, it will leave a bigger exit hole. ESPECIALLY when you work your way up the ladder to BIG bucks, caribou, elk ect...

DM

 

[Newtosavage]

While I agree that there is not enough difference in performance on live deer-sized game to even worry about from the .243 - 7x57/308/30-06 calibers, I disagree completely that a .223 is an effective hunting caliber for deer sized game.

Sure, people can and do take deer and hogs with a .223, but IMO its an undersized round for that application that often produces inhumane results. And yes, I've shot a LOT of deer-sized game with a .223 but refuse to any longer. When my daughter was ready to hunt deer, she had to first prove to me she could hit a 2 liter soda bottle at 100 yards with a .243. Only then would I take her. Two shots and two dropped deer (including a 175# 10 pt. buck) later, she was glad she used the .243.

As for why other cartridges, the question may as well be why are there so many choices in tire size?

 

[jrdolall]

In the last three years I have killed whitetail using 6.5x55, 30-30, 243 and 30-06. For whitetail I don't think there is really any difference in how they perform on the animal. The 30-30 is limited in range but that doesn't matter to me because I don't shoot over 150 yards. Every deer has dropped within 20 yards except the one a couple of weeks ago where it appears the 30-06 bullet did not do what I expected. As I get older I am beginning to enjoy the shorter length rifles more so the 30-30 and the Sporter Swede are going with me more often.

I enjoy these threads because I am really unfamiliar with some of these "exotic" cartridges having just gotten the 6.5x55 Swede a few years ago. I shoot these rifles for hunting only so a box of factory ammo lasts me 2-3 years. I save my brass and may one day start reloading rifle ammo but right now I only reload pistol.

 

[Paul7]

In the last three years I have killed whitetail using 6.5x55, 30-30, 243 and 30-06. For whitetail I don't think there is really any difference in how they perform on the animal. The 30-30 is limited in range but that doesn't matter to me because I don't shoot over 150 yards. Every deer has dropped within 20 yards except the one a couple of weeks ago where it appears the 30-06 bullet did not do what I expected. As I get older I am beginning to enjoy the shorter length rifles more so the 30-30 and the Sporter Swede are going with me more often.

I enjoy these threads because I am really unfamiliar with some of these "exotic" cartridges having just gotten the 6.5x55 Swede a few years ago. I shoot these rifles for hunting only so a box of factory ammo lasts me 2-3 years. I save my brass and may one day start reloading rifle ammo but right now I only reload pistol.

I wonder if a smaller deer is big enough to expand a .30-'06 round properly.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I wonder if a smaller deer is big enough to expand a .30-'06 round properly.

If you match the projectile to the game and impact velocity it does.

My fav deer load is a 125g pro hunter loaded north of 3000fps shoots to poa out to 300m and yields spectacular if not grizzly results with a broadside shot

 

[jrdolall]

I wonder if a smaller deer is big enough to expand a .30-'06 round properly.

In my experience it certainly does. This was just an anomaly as far as I can tell and I did recover the deer. 200 pound 8 point which isn't bad for an Alabama deer.

 

[Newtosavage]

Farthest I've ever had a deer run after shooting it with a rifle was a doe I shot with a 30-06 about 20 years ago. Shot her through the heart at 80 yards and she ran over 100 yards. I couldn't believe it. When I opened her up, there was nothing left inside.

On the other hand, nearly every deer I've shot with my 30-30 has dropped where it stood.

Jrdolall mentioned a carbine or short Swede. Now that piqued my interest.

I wonder if a person could achieve good accuracy with a heavy but short barrel in that caliber.

 

[Paul7]

Farthest I've ever had a deer run after shooting it with a rifle was a doe I shot with a 30-06 about 20 years ago. Shot her through the heart at 80 yards and she ran over 100 yards. I couldn't believe it. When I opened her up, there was nothing left inside.

On the other hand, nearly every deer I've shot with my 30-30 has dropped where it stood.

Jrdolall mentioned a carbine or short Swede. Now that piqued my interest.

I wonder if a person could achieve good accuracy with a heavy but short barrel in that caliber.

I've often thought a Swedish Mauser Carbine would be a great hog gun, I see them for sale from time to time at the LGS.

 

[captmoto]

Some of you guys sound like Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory with all your stats and teeny-weeny % differences in these cartridges.
If 3/8" is too much for you in an action you need to hit the gym and double down on the Wheaties.
For 99% of us the Swede is fine in it's low powered C&R load specs. Handloading the Swede ups your game tremendously and load data for modern rifles abounds.
Velocity does not always equal accuracy. You will likely increase throat erosion with real hot loads but again, 99% of us won't put that much lead down range.
I am a Swede fan, got a Tikka T3 Hunter in 6.5 Swede that shoots like a laser if I do my part. It's not picky except not seeming to like flat base bullets in reloads.
I say get the caliber that is available in the rifle you want most. It's more important to have a rifle you can handle and shoot well than it's caliber and in all practicality you can get all 3 calibers loaded too close to call on numbers.
FWIW I load for 8-9 calibers and don't have any need to make cases out of something else, everything I load for has commercially available cases including 6.5 x 50 Japanese.

 

[captmoto]

Some of you guys sound like Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory with all your stats and teeny-weeny % differences in these cartridges.
If 3/8" is too much for you in an action you need to hit the gym and double down on the Wheaties.
For 99% of us the Swede is fine in it's low powered C&R load specs. Handloading the Swede ups your game tremendously and load data for modern rifles abounds.
Velocity does not always equal accuracy. You will likely increase throat erosion with real hot loads but again, 99% of us won't put that much lead down range.
I am a Swede fan, got a Tikka T3 Hunter in 6.5 Swede that shoots like a laser if I do my part. It's not picky except not seeming to like flat base bullets in reloads.
I say get the caliber that is available in the rifle you want most. It's more important to have a rifle you can handle and shoot well than it's caliber and in all practicality you can get all 3 calibers loaded too close to call on numbers.

 

[Dr T]

Unfortunately, for many involved in our pastime (which some of whom actually depend on to keep themselves fed), obsession with the details is the name of the game.

Personally, I tend to regard a number of details to be relatively minor, notably the three major items of obsession:

Muzzle Velocity: A difference of 100 fps makes a difference of 10 yards in effective range if the rifle is sighted in 3" high at 100 yards.

Muzzle Energy: If the shot is placed well and the bullet performs, who cares? The deer (or elk, etc.) Exception: This does not necessarily include dangerous game!

Ballistic coefficient: I feel that this does not matter much at my typical hunting range (less than 250 yards). Within a range of +/- 0.05, the trajectories are pretty much the same out to about 300 yards given the same velocity.

After shooting and hunting for over 50 years, I have come to regard other items to be much more important. In no particular order:

Bullet momentum: In general, this is the real knock-down power of a cartridge (mass x velocity). Here percentages do count, and it is easier to add a a significant number of percent to mass (bullet weight) than to velocity. This particularly true for dangerous game (with a tip of the hat to Mr. Taylor).

Felt Recoil/Cartridge efficiency: These two go hand-in-hand. More efficient cases make the bullets go the same speed with less powder. The free recoil is based on bullet weight, bullet velocity, and the amount of powder used to achieve the velocity. Less powder means less recoil. As a note, for bullets of the same weight, bigger bores tend to be more efficient than larger bores (see ballistic coefficient above). As an example, consult a reloading manual and compare a 7mm-08 with a 308 with bullets of the same weight and the same powder. Also, smaller cases tend to be more efficient than larger cases.

Bullet construction: How the bullet performs, both in accuracy and terminally, is the end game. Period.

Now back the point: If I were to pick between the .260 and the 6.5x55 based purely on performance, the .260 would win. It has a more efficient case, and was designed to work with higher pressure. However, for purely aesthetic reasons, I have a 6.5x55.

Taking this one step further: When I chose between the .260 Rem and the 6.5 CM, I went with the 6.5 CM. I think that it is a better design. The performance is in the same class, and the 6.5 CM does not have the seating issues in a short action. It also has lower free recoil since it is a more efficient design. There is one other factor: I have always liked the 250 Savage. The 6.5 CM is about as close as you can get with factory loads that are easy to find: It is essentially a 250 Savage Improved that has been necked out to 6.5 mm, a mere 0.007". It is easy on the eye, easy on the shoulder, and wicked accurate (a characteristic shared with the 260 Rem and 6.5x55).

 

[justin22885]

Some of you guys sound like Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory with all your stats and teeny-weeny % differences in these cartridges.
If 3/8" is too much for you in an action you need to hit the gym and double down on the Wheaties.
For 99% of us the Swede is fine in it's low powered C&R load specs. Handloading the Swede ups your game tremendously and load data for modern rifles abounds.
Velocity does not always equal accuracy. You will likely increase throat erosion with real hot loads but again, 99% of us won't put that much lead down range.
I am a Swede fan, got a Tikka T3 Hunter in 6.5 Swede that shoots like a laser if I do my part. It's not picky except not seeming to like flat base bullets in reloads.
I say get the caliber that is available in the rifle you want most. It's more important to have a rifle you can handle and shoot well than it's caliber and in all practicality you can get all 3 calibers loaded too close to call on numbers.
FWIW I load for 8-9 calibers and don't have any need to make cases out of something else, everything I load for has commercially available cases including 6.5 x 50 Japanese.

wow... you actually admit to watching that crap so much you actually know this?

 

[ExAgoradzo]

Enjoying this discussion!

The only wrong answer is, "get the 260 cause it's a short action..." How much longer of a bolt pull is the medium length Mauser?

Thanks gents for the points...

Greg

 

[justin22885]

Enjoying this discussion!

The only wrong answer is, "get the 260 cause it's a short action..." How much longer of a bolt pull is the medium length Mauser?

Thanks gents for the points...

Greg

its not just because its a short action, but because short actions give you more options, more aftermarket, better detachable magazines to feed from, more rifles to chamber it into, the ability to make ammo from cheaper .308 brass... all these things go along with "because its a short action" and they are all very good reasons