.270 v. .30-30 v. 30-06
- Thread starter danxt
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The Bushmaster
Member
If you are planing to hunt Elk. The .30-06 of your list is the best bet...
Wolfgang2000
Member
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It's basically a short 30-06. Case capacity gives the 06 a edge, but the 308 holds it's own. The 308 is my round of choice.
Shawnee
member
Keep your .243 and use it for deer. It is the best deer caliber ever invented.
If you want to go for Elk - get a .270. It will cleanly kill any Elk you ever see at any range you ever have any business taking a shot.
The .270 is a "long-action" caliber and - for some people - "long action" calibers sometimes present scope mounting problems. The problem usually occurs when the person has a very thick chest and/or short arms. More "average" built people can usually use a "long action" caliber just fine.
In the case where people struggle with the "long action" they will switch to a "short action" caliber and the "short action" caliber that is most like the .270 is the 7mm/08, and it too will be a splendid Elk-swatter for you.
The 30/30 will certainly kill Elk but you will be limited in range with it.
Good Hunting !
If you want to go for Elk - get a .270. It will cleanly kill any Elk you ever see at any range you ever have any business taking a shot.
The .270 is a "long-action" caliber and - for some people - "long action" calibers sometimes present scope mounting problems. The problem usually occurs when the person has a very thick chest and/or short arms. More "average" built people can usually use a "long action" caliber just fine.
In the case where people struggle with the "long action" they will switch to a "short action" caliber and the "short action" caliber that is most like the .270 is the 7mm/08, and it too will be a splendid Elk-swatter for you.
The 30/30 will certainly kill Elk but you will be limited in range with it.
Good Hunting !
FITASC666
Member
Danxt
Here’s a curveball: Try the .308. Lots of loads, low recoil and muzzle blast, manufactured loads as fast as a 7mm Rem Mag (Hornady), as powerful as the 06 (Federal HE) and as comfortable and slow for nice mushrooms and channel wounds in the thick stuff as the 30-30 (Remington et. al.). Actually perhaps it is, with a stretch, the first short mag. It started as a shortened 30-06 for automatic weapons for NATO in the 7,62 x 51mm configuration, and then very slightly modified for hunting rifles as the .308 Winchester, I believe around 1954. Hell of a success story since. The trick, regardless of your final choice, is to ensure you select the proper bullet type and weight for your quarry and the right impact velocity for the projectile to work effectively. All this presupposes that shot placement is achieved. Have fun and good luck.
Here’s a curveball: Try the .308. Lots of loads, low recoil and muzzle blast, manufactured loads as fast as a 7mm Rem Mag (Hornady), as powerful as the 06 (Federal HE) and as comfortable and slow for nice mushrooms and channel wounds in the thick stuff as the 30-30 (Remington et. al.). Actually perhaps it is, with a stretch, the first short mag. It started as a shortened 30-06 for automatic weapons for NATO in the 7,62 x 51mm configuration, and then very slightly modified for hunting rifles as the .308 Winchester, I believe around 1954. Hell of a success story since. The trick, regardless of your final choice, is to ensure you select the proper bullet type and weight for your quarry and the right impact velocity for the projectile to work effectively. All this presupposes that shot placement is achieved. Have fun and good luck.
woof
Member
"Real men" seem to deny it but recoil matters. I would guess that almost every day a shooter without the experience of higher recoil rounds like .30-06 are persuaded here to get more gun than they really need. Then they develop a recoil flinch which they never get rid of. Plus everybody talks about ranges. I never see a response to a thread like this that says it's ok to have a 100 yd rifle instead of a 300 yd rifle and go get closer!
If I were you I'd get the .30-30 and don't worry about the elk. By the time you go elk hunting you'll be ready for another rifle anyway. That's another thing about these threads. The answers are always as if it has to be one rifle for everything, and this is coming from those who have a rifle for every narrow purpose.
If I were you I'd get the .30-30 and don't worry about the elk. By the time you go elk hunting you'll be ready for another rifle anyway. That's another thing about these threads. The answers are always as if it has to be one rifle for everything, and this is coming from those who have a rifle for every narrow purpose.
Shawnee
member
Well said, "Woof" !!!!!!!
ThomasT
Member
I've owned rifles chambered from 223 up to 8x57 with nearly every other round thrown in the mix. Plus 45-70, 44mag and 357 mag rifles.
I have killed enough deer and elk to fill up the beds of several trucks. Only one deer was killed at long range. A small whitetail at 225-250 yards. Everything else was killed at 80 yards or less. The closest was 13 yards.
With the excecption of that one deer I could have killed everthing else with a 30-30. I like to set up to watch crossings, feeders and clearcuts. Thats why most of my shots have been so close. Where and how you hunt should help you choose what gun to start with.
Any of the calibers named will work just fine. I hope you aren't limited to just one rifle. The 30-30 is a fine place to start and it just gets better from there.
I have killed enough deer and elk to fill up the beds of several trucks. Only one deer was killed at long range. A small whitetail at 225-250 yards. Everything else was killed at 80 yards or less. The closest was 13 yards.
With the excecption of that one deer I could have killed everthing else with a 30-30. I like to set up to watch crossings, feeders and clearcuts. Thats why most of my shots have been so close. Where and how you hunt should help you choose what gun to start with.
Any of the calibers named will work just fine. I hope you aren't limited to just one rifle. The 30-30 is a fine place to start and it just gets better from there.
scythefwd
Member
OK, here it goes.
The .270 and the .30-06 are about equal in energy. Both move approximately 2800 fps with a 170 gr. bullet. The .270 is a flatter trajectory, but the '06 can shoot heavier loads (which leaves more umpf there at 400y). The 06 can shoot up to 220 gr bullets, the 270 can't.
The .30-30 is a whole different class. It tops out at 2200-2300 fps with 170 gr bullets. The .30-30 is getting to handgun power at 300y (where to 270 and 06 both are still going strong). The .30-30 isn't just a levergun, but they are most commonly leverguns, so if you want to shoot spitzer bullets you either have to be using polimer tips (like leverloution by hornady) or roll your own (don't put more than one in a tubular mag if it isn't a polimer tipped round, stacked mags are ok to fill).
Like someone said earlier, the wound channel will be larger for the .30-30 and the 06 (both use a .308 caliber bullet) and smaller for the .270 (I'll let you guess it's diameter).
At 100y all three will fully penetrate a whitetail, and possibly an elk (.30-30 is iffy, the others will fully penetrate). By this I mean there is an entry and an exit hole.
Ammo will be most expensive for the 06, cheapest for the .30-30
In power, the 270 and 06 are equals for most store bought ammo. The .30-30 is a distant third. For trajectories, the 270, then the 06, then the .30-30 from flattest to most arched.
The .270 and the .30-06 are about equal in energy. Both move approximately 2800 fps with a 170 gr. bullet. The .270 is a flatter trajectory, but the '06 can shoot heavier loads (which leaves more umpf there at 400y). The 06 can shoot up to 220 gr bullets, the 270 can't.
The .30-30 is a whole different class. It tops out at 2200-2300 fps with 170 gr bullets. The .30-30 is getting to handgun power at 300y (where to 270 and 06 both are still going strong). The .30-30 isn't just a levergun, but they are most commonly leverguns, so if you want to shoot spitzer bullets you either have to be using polimer tips (like leverloution by hornady) or roll your own (don't put more than one in a tubular mag if it isn't a polimer tipped round, stacked mags are ok to fill).
Like someone said earlier, the wound channel will be larger for the .30-30 and the 06 (both use a .308 caliber bullet) and smaller for the .270 (I'll let you guess it's diameter).
At 100y all three will fully penetrate a whitetail, and possibly an elk (.30-30 is iffy, the others will fully penetrate). By this I mean there is an entry and an exit hole.
Ammo will be most expensive for the 06, cheapest for the .30-30
In power, the 270 and 06 are equals for most store bought ammo. The .30-30 is a distant third. For trajectories, the 270, then the 06, then the .30-30 from flattest to most arched.
aspade
Member
Disagree. At rifle impact speeds most tissue damage is stretching and tearing of displaced tissue, particularly when that tissue is weakened by bullet fragmentation.
Only the last few inches of wound track where the bullet has slowed too much for significant stretching effects are caused by direct cutting and crushing. The important number there is bullet expanded diameter, not unfired dimensions.
A .270 makes notably more of a mess inside than any 30-30 kill I've seen dressed. With about 80% more energy at 100 yards it's not hard to see why.
ColeK
Member
Dan, I’m not going to read all of these posts but I’m going to try to answer your questions.
I don’t know where live, how you will hunt, the terrain you will hunt, or how well you shoot. All of this can be a factor to consider.
I own and use rifles chambered in all 3 cartridges and have for many years.
The .30-30 aka .30 WCF has been killing deer, black bear, and other animals since 1894. The cartridge is commonly chambered in lever action rifles and these rifles are easy to find as is the ammo. The recoil is less than the other two. The muzzle energy is also less than the other two. With traditional factory ammo the effective range is about 125 – 150 yards. With the new Hornady factory ammo it is effective out to about 200 yards. The accuracy of these rifles is about 2.5” with iron sights and a little better with a peep sight or scope. Rifles in this chambering are considered bush guns and are adequate for most game in the lower 48 state within their range limitation. I killed about 60 deer with a .30-30. My longest shot was a one shot kill at 132 yards.
The .270 Win has been around since 1925 and is available and any action you might want. Ammo is readily available with 130 to 150 grain bullets. The accuracy of these rifles is about 1.5” or less. Most of these rifles are more accurate than most shooters. I have 2 bolt action rifles in this chambering that shoot MOA or less and one of then is over 50 years old. The .270 is good for size game elk size and smaller out to about 350 yards. My longest shot was a one shot kill at 341 yards. The .270 will shoot flatter than the other 2.
The .30-06 Springfield has been around since 1906 and is available and any action you might want. Ammo is readily available with 150 to 180 grain bullets but ammo is available with bullets from .55 – 220 grains. The accuracy of these rifles is about 1.5” more or less. Most of these rifles are also more accurate than most shooters. The .30-06 is good for size game elk size and smaller out to about 350 yards. But it has been used to kill all types of big game all over the world.
There are a few things to remember:
1. Most big game in this country is shot at less than 100 yards.
2. Muzzle energy doesn’t make up for poor shot placement.
3. If you want to be a good shot at ranges longer than 100 yards you have to practice, practice and practice.
Pick a rifle in any one of the 3. Go practice, practice and practice. Then go huntin'. And good luck.
The Ol’ man said, “Son, don’t brag to me about the long shot you made! Brag to me about how close you got!”
I don’t know where live, how you will hunt, the terrain you will hunt, or how well you shoot. All of this can be a factor to consider.
I own and use rifles chambered in all 3 cartridges and have for many years.
The .30-30 aka .30 WCF has been killing deer, black bear, and other animals since 1894. The cartridge is commonly chambered in lever action rifles and these rifles are easy to find as is the ammo. The recoil is less than the other two. The muzzle energy is also less than the other two. With traditional factory ammo the effective range is about 125 – 150 yards. With the new Hornady factory ammo it is effective out to about 200 yards. The accuracy of these rifles is about 2.5” with iron sights and a little better with a peep sight or scope. Rifles in this chambering are considered bush guns and are adequate for most game in the lower 48 state within their range limitation. I killed about 60 deer with a .30-30. My longest shot was a one shot kill at 132 yards.
The .270 Win has been around since 1925 and is available and any action you might want. Ammo is readily available with 130 to 150 grain bullets. The accuracy of these rifles is about 1.5” or less. Most of these rifles are more accurate than most shooters. I have 2 bolt action rifles in this chambering that shoot MOA or less and one of then is over 50 years old. The .270 is good for size game elk size and smaller out to about 350 yards. My longest shot was a one shot kill at 341 yards. The .270 will shoot flatter than the other 2.
The .30-06 Springfield has been around since 1906 and is available and any action you might want. Ammo is readily available with 150 to 180 grain bullets but ammo is available with bullets from .55 – 220 grains. The accuracy of these rifles is about 1.5” more or less. Most of these rifles are also more accurate than most shooters. The .30-06 is good for size game elk size and smaller out to about 350 yards. But it has been used to kill all types of big game all over the world.
There are a few things to remember:
1. Most big game in this country is shot at less than 100 yards.
2. Muzzle energy doesn’t make up for poor shot placement.
3. If you want to be a good shot at ranges longer than 100 yards you have to practice, practice and practice.
Pick a rifle in any one of the 3. Go practice, practice and practice. Then go huntin'. And good luck.
The Ol’ man said, “Son, don’t brag to me about the long shot you made! Brag to me about how close you got!”
qajaq59
Member
The .308 is nice if you happen to like lever guns. It gives you almost the punch of the 06 and you can still have the lever. It's my favorite rifle.
Shawnee
member
Hi "danxt"
"How come?"
Because it will cleanly and humanely kill any deer you ever see at any distance you should ever take a shot at. It has a very, very modest recoil and blast which is a huge help to accurate shooting. It is chambered in a wide variety of rifle and action types. Available commercial ammo for use on deer is very good and it is very easy to reload for.
"How come?"
Because it will cleanly and humanely kill any deer you ever see at any distance you should ever take a shot at. It has a very, very modest recoil and blast which is a huge help to accurate shooting. It is chambered in a wide variety of rifle and action types. Available commercial ammo for use on deer is very good and it is very easy to reload for.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
The most common loadings:
.30-30: 170-grain bullet at 2,200 ft/sec. Hornady now has the "Leverlution" loading with a soft-tip bullet so that a pointed bullet can safely be loaded into a tubular magazine. The 150-grain has a muzzle velocity around 2,400 or 2,500. The pointed nose allows a flatter trajectory than the round-nosed standard .30-30 bullets.
.270: 130-grain at around 2,900 to 3,000 ft/sec. This is ancient standard deer load. Some use the 150-grain bullet for elk.
.30-'06: 150-grain at around 2,800 to 2,900 ft/sec. This has pretty much been the all-around load for the best part of 90 or more years. Some also use the 165-grain in for deer hunting, and the 180-grain bullet is common for elk.
Note that barrel lengths affect the above numbers. Shorter is slower.
For handloaders, the thirty-caliber cartridges have more options available than do the .277s.
.30-30: 170-grain bullet at 2,200 ft/sec. Hornady now has the "Leverlution" loading with a soft-tip bullet so that a pointed bullet can safely be loaded into a tubular magazine. The 150-grain has a muzzle velocity around 2,400 or 2,500. The pointed nose allows a flatter trajectory than the round-nosed standard .30-30 bullets.
.270: 130-grain at around 2,900 to 3,000 ft/sec. This is ancient standard deer load. Some use the 150-grain bullet for elk.
.30-'06: 150-grain at around 2,800 to 2,900 ft/sec. This has pretty much been the all-around load for the best part of 90 or more years. Some also use the 165-grain in for deer hunting, and the 180-grain bullet is common for elk.
Note that barrel lengths affect the above numbers. Shorter is slower.
For handloaders, the thirty-caliber cartridges have more options available than do the .277s.
mljdeckard
Member
I very much agree with the .243. It's fast, flat round with scorching velocity. It's more than enough for anything from varmints up to deer. (I know guys who hunt elk with it, but I don't. The only reason I don't use one now, is me and my dad share a deer rifle in .257 Roberts. I might still get one for my wife.
Shawnee
member
".270: 130-grain at around 2,900 to 3,000 ft/sec. This is ancient standard deer load. Some use the 150-grain bullet for elk"
That's definitely a low muzzle velocity figure for a .270 130-grainer. It will hit 3200fps easy and I just now learned the load I thought was producing 3200fps without undue pressure is actually at 3600fps !
Check my post on the handloading forum re: .270 & .243. "Ants" just gave me a major education !
That's definitely a low muzzle velocity figure for a .270 130-grainer. It will hit 3200fps easy and I just now learned the load I thought was producing 3200fps without undue pressure is actually at 3600fps !
Check my post on the handloading forum re: .270 & .243. "Ants" just gave me a major education !
RugerOldArmy
Member
.270 Win makes significant use of barrel length beyond 22". Getting 3140 fps w/a 130 Gr bullet (a traditional Jack O'Connor load), in a 24" barrel is near the margins. I have a Savage with a 26" Shilen barrel, and never got much over 3200...even with a stout load of RL22.
The 3600 fps w/130 Gr bullet, in anything other than a bizzarre configuration, is a mistake, a malfunction, or pure fiction. You can't believe everything posted on the internet.
W/46 Gr. of H4350, and the laws of diminishing returns, in a 24" barrel, I doubt it gets 3200 fps.
Slower powders (IMR4831, H4831, H4831SC, RL22, MagPro) will get more velocity in .270 Win than H4350, but in a barrel 24" or less, getting 3140 fps with a current book load is about the best a handloader can get.
Older manuals listed hotter loads, but even factory cartridges are loaded lighter than they were in Jack O'Connor's day.
For most sporters w/a 22" barrel, I doubt you'll get a safe load to 3140 fps.
You can get 3600 fps in a 22" .270 Win with Sierra's .277 90 Gr Varminter and RL15 though. (A Sierra accuracy load, no less.)
scythefwd
Member
True, the bullet does a lot of damage tearing through the deer. A 270 is moving so fast that it helps in the damage compartment, but you are still tearing with a smaller slug at first (unless the slug expands from pure air pressure a full .038 which I don't see happening). I said the wound channel would be larger, not more ragged. The more ragged hole left by the 270 will be more total damage, but the hole size (entry hole at least) will be smaller. The exit hole depends solely on your ammo. Will a nosler partition spread out as much as a softpoint flat top (never seen a flat top soft point .270, but I am willing to accept that it can exist)? Will the rate of spread be the same? The 270 will have to spread out at least 1/6th more just to have the final size the same and it will have to do it in less time (since it is traveling at almost 600 fps faster assuming the same weight bullet and accurate reloading info in my manual). And the most important question, at 100y, will either bullet fully expand before exiting the other side? I don't see that happening, nor do I see a standard sized deer of 200lbs (ok, I grew up in IL, in VA it's closer to 125 lbs) having enough mass to keep either bullet from going completely through.
That said, the 270 is the superior round of the two, but it is more than necessary if you are hunting at less than 150y.
RugerOldArmy
Member
One other thing the .270 Win has going for it is sectional density. If you compare numbers of mid range bullets for '06 and .270 (say 165 and 130, respectively) and heavier bullets (say 150-160Gr .277(s) vs 180 Gr .308(s)) the .270 Win's SD(s) are higher. It is one reason the lighter bullets are still so effective, higher SD aids penetration.
scythefwd
Member
RugerOldArmy,
I have wondered about that. A .270 will shoot through deer at 300y. At what point does having more penetration become a problem (say you go though before you expand)?
I have wondered about that. A .270 will shoot through deer at 300y. At what point does having more penetration become a problem (say you go though before you expand)?
RugerOldArmy
Member
I don't see overpenetration as a problem. No matter what, you're ethically responsible to consider what is behind your target. If there is another deer, you shouldn't take the shot in my book.
With respect to going through before the bullet expands, I don't think that is an issue, unless you managed to find solids in .277. (I've never seen any in .277). Most all hunting bullets in .277 expand, and even Noslet Partitions expand well. With a .270 win, I'd worry more about taking a 50-75 yard shot with a bullet that expands too much at that speed...say a 130 Gr Nosler Ballistic tip. I use Nosler Partitions more for this reason than any in .270 Win.
Within 75 yards, and '06 with a heavy bullet probably has the advantage over the .270, just because a lightly constructed bullet would be less likely to shatter if it hit a bone, given the difference in velocity between an '06 and a .270 at that range.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Factory loadings in the '06, from 26" barrels included the 110-grain at 3,480 and the 150-grain at a tad over 2,900. Those numbers were published for decades on those pads you find on gunstore counters.
So I can maybe believe 3,200 from a 26" .270 with a 130-grain, but I don't ever recall seeing it.
But 3,600? Hey, that's some fine Progressive Pall Mall that somebody's smoking. Sorry, not credible at rational chamber pressures.
But you start talking about the barrel lengths of most modern rifles, and I stand by my numbers as being reasonable ballpark...
So I can maybe believe 3,200 from a 26" .270 with a 130-grain, but I don't ever recall seeing it.
But 3,600? Hey, that's some fine Progressive Pall Mall that somebody's smoking. Sorry, not credible at rational chamber pressures.
But you start talking about the barrel lengths of most modern rifles, and I stand by my numbers as being reasonable ballpark...
TCB in TN
Member
I love all three rounds but the comparison between the 30-30 and the other two is flawed. The 30-30 is a great round, proven to be "effective" (whatever that means) inside 150 yards on deer, and "effective" at closer ranges on larger game. But the other two outperform the 30-30 in EVERY area except recoil, and the "handiness" of the typical 30-30 package, at ALL ranges. Flatter shooting, more powerful, you name it the .270 and 30-06 are over better rounds. Those arguing between the .270 and the 30-06 are really picking at nits. The .270 shoots slightly (and I do mean slightly) flatter, and the 30-06 handles larger bullets and usually has a better selection of rounds over the counter. BTW the average hunter is not going to notice the difference in performance on the 130gr .270 as compared to the 150gr 30-06. I have owned, shot, hunted, and taken game with both and think that they are both great. Currently I own several 30-06s mainly because I found good deals on them (for myself and my boys), but had I found a good deal on the .270 I would have went down that road and felt just a comfortable with my selection. I grew up shooting the 06, and have a great love of the round but discussing the comparative merits of the two rounds is like discussing a beautiful woman, and her equally beautiful younger sister.
WOW!
Thank you all... I had no idea that I would get this elaborate of a response, and I think it's great!
Since it has become clear that the 30-30 is really only effective out to about 150yds, what would be the effective range of the .243 Win?
I always thought that the .243 was a smaller and therefore less effective round that didn't have the range to do the job at 300yds... but would it?
If my assessment is correct, the real factors here are centered around velocity and bullet mass... in other words, the amount of energy you can put into the animal.
So, since a .243 is usually a 100gr round (right)?, and it's moving at about 2800 fps the inertia of the round (at muzzle) is 100 * 2800 = 280000 gr*fps.
I know the .243 is also available in a 125gr round, but what would be the velocity on that? Can I assume that it's 280000 / 125 = 2240?
Now naturally, since it is a heavier round, it is moving slower, which means that you can expect more bullet drop at the same range as with a 100gr.
So, if it were possible, wouldn't you want to get the lightest bullet you could to maximize your range and still put the same amount of energy into the bullet, and therefore into the animal?
Since diameter of the round doesn't really matter much when it comes to how big of a hole it makes, wouldn't you just want the smallest, flattest shooting round you could get?
Then why not look for a .243win in 50 gr?
Is there any truth to this, or am I missing something?
Thank you all... I had no idea that I would get this elaborate of a response, and I think it's great!
Since it has become clear that the 30-30 is really only effective out to about 150yds, what would be the effective range of the .243 Win?
I always thought that the .243 was a smaller and therefore less effective round that didn't have the range to do the job at 300yds... but would it?
If my assessment is correct, the real factors here are centered around velocity and bullet mass... in other words, the amount of energy you can put into the animal.
So, since a .243 is usually a 100gr round (right)?, and it's moving at about 2800 fps the inertia of the round (at muzzle) is 100 * 2800 = 280000 gr*fps.
I know the .243 is also available in a 125gr round, but what would be the velocity on that? Can I assume that it's 280000 / 125 = 2240?
Now naturally, since it is a heavier round, it is moving slower, which means that you can expect more bullet drop at the same range as with a 100gr.
So, if it were possible, wouldn't you want to get the lightest bullet you could to maximize your range and still put the same amount of energy into the bullet, and therefore into the animal?
Since diameter of the round doesn't really matter much when it comes to how big of a hole it makes, wouldn't you just want the smallest, flattest shooting round you could get?
Then why not look for a .243win in 50 gr?
Is there any truth to this, or am I missing something?
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