unspellable
Member
Howzzit the .410 became so popular as a kid's gun when the 28 gauge will do anything the .410 will only better?
One of the mysteries in life.
One of the mysteries in life.
28 gauge vs .410
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.410 is an American cartridge, and was offered in fairly large numbers of guns 80-50 years ago with the cost being a big part of the draw. Ammo for these guns once upon a time was cheaper than that of the larger bores.
28ga has only become a common gauge since WWII. There are older guns, but they are so rare that even their value is evaluated on a case by case basis. Prior to WWII 28ga & 32ga were built at approximately the same rate. Imagine going to buy a box of 32ga ammo today, and you have a good idea of what 28ga shooters faced then, while every hardware store carried .410.
28ga has only become a common gauge since WWII. There are older guns, but they are so rare that even their value is evaluated on a case by case basis. Prior to WWII 28ga & 32ga were built at approximately the same rate. Imagine going to buy a box of 32ga ammo today, and you have a good idea of what 28ga shooters faced then, while every hardware store carried .410.
unspellable
Member
The 28 gauge was around before the .410. On the other hand the .410 was known in Europe before it became popular here. It began as a shot loading in a brass rifle case for a rifle. It became a conventional shot cartridge and gained popularity when it was adopted as crippled form of 28 gauge as a handicap in skeet. Therein lies the mystery. As a shot cartridge it was deliberately designed to be inferior to the 28 gauge. So why did it gain popularity in the field?
Ithica offered the 28 gauge beginning in 1911. Other manufactures offered it before WWi as well. It has always been around and in prior to WWII it was more popular than now. In recent years it has been enjoying a resurgence in popularity.
Cost of manufacture is virtually identical for either chambering.
If at some point the .410 cartridge sold for less than the 28 gauge it was because it had already become popular, not the other way around.
The 32 gauge (Still available, I saw a quality NIB 32 gauge over under at the last gun show I went to.) was never viewed as much more than a garden gun, or a dove gun at most.
Bottom line is the 28 gauge had the head start, there is no significant difference in the cost of either, so why did the .410 beat out the 28 gauge for cheap kid's guns? The 28 gauge will throw a better pattern with the same shot charge, has the same or less recoil, offers the option of a larger shot charge, and doesn't have those silly skinny looking barrels.
Ithica offered the 28 gauge beginning in 1911. Other manufactures offered it before WWi as well. It has always been around and in prior to WWII it was more popular than now. In recent years it has been enjoying a resurgence in popularity.
Cost of manufacture is virtually identical for either chambering.
If at some point the .410 cartridge sold for less than the 28 gauge it was because it had already become popular, not the other way around.
The 32 gauge (Still available, I saw a quality NIB 32 gauge over under at the last gun show I went to.) was never viewed as much more than a garden gun, or a dove gun at most.
Bottom line is the 28 gauge had the head start, there is no significant difference in the cost of either, so why did the .410 beat out the 28 gauge for cheap kid's guns? The 28 gauge will throw a better pattern with the same shot charge, has the same or less recoil, offers the option of a larger shot charge, and doesn't have those silly skinny looking barrels.
You're preaching to the choir.
thefitzvh
Member
I see a heckuvalotta combo rifles and stuff in .410 / 22LR that can also shoot 45 long colt outta the shotgun barrel.
Neat idea. 3 guns in one
James
Edited to remove the non-existant 40 Long Colt caliber...
Neat idea. 3 guns in one
James
Edited to remove the non-existant 40 Long Colt caliber...
Last edited:
GrayBear
Member
The .410 Bore -
Price and avalibility! When I was a kid in the 1930's all the country stores sold some version of the .410 single shot "farm gun" for ten or twelve bucks, NIB.
I have a .410 LeFever SxS double my Grandpa bought new for $20. One son has my Dad's Steven's single barrel. Another son has the other Grandps'a single barrel. Every rural family had one or more.
My mother would shoot it because the "little" .410 wasn't as intimidating to women and to kids as a bigger gauge.
In that era, the ammo was cheap and available anywhere. The 12 ga, 16 ga and the .410 was stocked in any country cross-roads store. The 20 ga had to be looked for and nobody ever saw a box of 28 gauge.
GrayBear
Price and avalibility! When I was a kid in the 1930's all the country stores sold some version of the .410 single shot "farm gun" for ten or twelve bucks, NIB.
I have a .410 LeFever SxS double my Grandpa bought new for $20. One son has my Dad's Steven's single barrel. Another son has the other Grandps'a single barrel. Every rural family had one or more.
My mother would shoot it because the "little" .410 wasn't as intimidating to women and to kids as a bigger gauge.
In that era, the ammo was cheap and available anywhere. The 12 ga, 16 ga and the .410 was stocked in any country cross-roads store. The 20 ga had to be looked for and nobody ever saw a box of 28 gauge.
GrayBear
Ash
Member
And a .410 bolt action Mossberg makes such a nice squirrel gun! (My first firearm and among the most cherrished. I rate it with my Western Field .22LR and Colt 1849 Pocket Pistol carried by my great-great grandfather when he was 14 in the battle of Atlanta.) I still use it today for squirrels. It's light, very accurate, and does what it always did. I even take it out skeet shooting (informal) just to see how good I can get at single-shot.
Ash
Ash
Here may be part of the reason...
Did anyone make an affordable American made, side by side in 28 ga?
I can find nice examples of each gauge, but not 28. If anyone knows, let me know. If no one ever made one, that may be part of the reason. \
From what the old timers tell me, the hardware stores had piles of affordable sxs's. Well, mostly single shots, but if you had a few more $$, and a good crop that year, you may spend the extra on a sxs.
Just a thought.
Did anyone make an affordable American made, side by side in 28 ga?
I can find nice examples of each gauge, but not 28. If anyone knows, let me know. If no one ever made one, that may be part of the reason. \
From what the old timers tell me, the hardware stores had piles of affordable sxs's. Well, mostly single shots, but if you had a few more $$, and a good crop that year, you may spend the extra on a sxs.
Just a thought.
unspellable
Member
28 gauge SxS
I don't know of any currently made American SxS guns in 28 gauge although there used to be such available. I have a 28 gauge SxS Ithica. (There isn't much of anything in an American made SxS any more.)
Ruger makes an over under for 28 gauge.
There are a number of imported SxS guns in 28 gauge. Including the Stoeger or Baikal imports which are about as cheap as you are going to get. I saw one of these SxS in 28 gauge guns NIB at a gun show a few months ago.
I don't know of any currently made American SxS guns in 28 gauge although there used to be such available. I have a 28 gauge SxS Ithica. (There isn't much of anything in an American made SxS any more.)
Ruger makes an over under for 28 gauge.
There are a number of imported SxS guns in 28 gauge. Including the Stoeger or Baikal imports which are about as cheap as you are going to get. I saw one of these SxS in 28 gauge guns NIB at a gun show a few months ago.
I forgot about Ithica. Do you know how much the Ithica's run?
I know you can get limited runs of American made 28's, they just run $5k or so...
I like Ruger's 28, it's just a tad much $$. I'd get a used one of all else fails, but I'd really like a 28 sxs. I've seen the imports and they don't impress me much. I'd rather get a used one along the Stevens 311 route if they ever were made.
I know you can get limited runs of American made 28's, they just run $5k or so...
I like Ruger's 28, it's just a tad much $$. I'd get a used one of all else fails, but I'd really like a 28 sxs. I've seen the imports and they don't impress me much. I'd rather get a used one along the Stevens 311 route if they ever were made.
unspellable
Member
28 gauge SxS availability
My 28 gauge Ithica is a 1911 Flues, the first year Ithica made a SxS chambered for the 28 gauge. The Flues 28 is a colletor's item now and fetches a price. I turned down three offers of $500 for mine in the space of five minutes. (It's a handed down in the family item.) It's mecanichally sound, but the the finish is not in new condition and has some freckles. I have been debating for years whether or not to have it refinished. I have no idea when Ithica discontinued the SxS 28.
There are various SxS and over under 28's available. The Stoeger or Baikal would be at the low end. I have a very nice import that I bought used in virtually new conditon for $800. I previously had a nice used import for less than that that had rather short barrels. There are several makes of import that are very nice indeed. I'll take a look when I get home this week end and see if I can come up with some specifics.
One of the gun rags just had an article on a new 28 gauge. The gun looked good, but I thought the article was so so.
My 28 gauge Ithica is a 1911 Flues, the first year Ithica made a SxS chambered for the 28 gauge. The Flues 28 is a colletor's item now and fetches a price. I turned down three offers of $500 for mine in the space of five minutes. (It's a handed down in the family item.) It's mecanichally sound, but the the finish is not in new condition and has some freckles. I have been debating for years whether or not to have it refinished. I have no idea when Ithica discontinued the SxS 28.
There are various SxS and over under 28's available. The Stoeger or Baikal would be at the low end. I have a very nice import that I bought used in virtually new conditon for $800. I previously had a nice used import for less than that that had rather short barrels. There are several makes of import that are very nice indeed. I'll take a look when I get home this week end and see if I can come up with some specifics.
One of the gun rags just had an article on a new 28 gauge. The gun looked good, but I thought the article was so so.
Perhaps he meant a 44-.40 ?
seeker_two
Member
Or .41 Colt?...
So, what makes the 28 a better choice than the .410, anyway?...
unspellable
Member
The 28 gauge has a larger barrel diameter and avoids the "pipe stem" look of the .410. The 28 gauge cartridge looks like a proper shotgun cartridge unlike the anorexic .410.
With the larger diameter barrel the 28 gauge throws what is termed a "balanced load" meaning the diameter of the bore as related to the shot charge does not result in too long a shot column. Thus the 28 gauage will produce a better pattern than the .410. The .410 has much too long a shot column which results in deformed shot and poor patterns. There are those who will claim a .410 can throw a good pattern, but barring the very rare exception, it just ain't so. One of the fallacies is the practice of attempting to pattern the gun by shooting at a stationary target. This only evaluates the pattern in two dimensions. The pattern is three dimensional and you cannot neglect that third dimension. This problem is what is usually referred to as shot stringing, meaning that some of the shot arrives at the target area late and will miss a moving target. properly evaluating a pattern requires a special target in which the paper is moving as the shot is fired.
The 28 gauge is usually loaded with 3/4 oz shot, the maximum load available in the longest .410. But the 28 gauge is also available with a 1 oz loading.
If you believe in the theory that free boring reduces felt recoil, then the 28 should produce less recoil because of the larger bore. (I'm a bit dubious about this one myself.)
With the larger diameter barrel the 28 gauge throws what is termed a "balanced load" meaning the diameter of the bore as related to the shot charge does not result in too long a shot column. Thus the 28 gauage will produce a better pattern than the .410. The .410 has much too long a shot column which results in deformed shot and poor patterns. There are those who will claim a .410 can throw a good pattern, but barring the very rare exception, it just ain't so. One of the fallacies is the practice of attempting to pattern the gun by shooting at a stationary target. This only evaluates the pattern in two dimensions. The pattern is three dimensional and you cannot neglect that third dimension. This problem is what is usually referred to as shot stringing, meaning that some of the shot arrives at the target area late and will miss a moving target. properly evaluating a pattern requires a special target in which the paper is moving as the shot is fired.
The 28 gauge is usually loaded with 3/4 oz shot, the maximum load available in the longest .410. But the 28 gauge is also available with a 1 oz loading.
If you believe in the theory that free boring reduces felt recoil, then the 28 should produce less recoil because of the larger bore. (I'm a bit dubious about this one myself.)
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